Predatory Photographers & How To Handle Them

Jerome Razoir , P R E S T O N I can understand not wanting to say anything, even at a pinch not wanting to tick the turned-up-but-not-recommended box. But to write something which is actually untrue, and makes you complicit in later acts of abuse ? Seems very odd to me. 

Simon Carter said

Roswell Ivory had an important message which might get overlooked - and applies to everyone involved in the modelography world.

"If you know that someone is a creep then stop working with them. Stand with us."

That includes people we might think of as friends.

Where money is concerned thats very unlikely to happen.

CalmNudes said

Jerome Razoir , P R E S T O N I can understand not wanting to say anything, even at a pinch not wanting to tick the turned-up-but-not-recommended box. But to write something which is actually untrue, and makes you complicit in later acts of abuse ? Seems very odd to me. 

There is (IMO) a particular (but unintended) problem with this site where a public reference is almost universally expected (and sometimes demanded) and failing to leave one is widely perceived as a slight in itself. This is partly due to the way the site is designed and partly due to dogmatic attitudes amongst some members, and which are occasionally exhibited in the forum.

Faye Taylor said

Re references, any public system of reporting a bad experience is far too open to abuse. Plus the threat of a ‘bad reference’ is enough to possibly encourage a model to continue a bad shoot. Also one persons score for manners and modesty could completely conflict with someone else based purely on personality. Same for reliability.

Many years ago I had norovirus and had to cancel some shoots at late notice. One photographer did not want to cancel and came to shoot me even though I clearly was not fit. (It’s my fault I should’ve insisted on cancelling but didn’t want the dreaded blue face bad feedback for cancelling) He complained I wasn’t fit and that another model he had recently worked with had meningitis and she was fine to model unlike me who didn’t have the stamina. I knew the model and I’d seen her recently so I was concerned not only that she had meningitis but that also I may have contracted it. A quick call to her revealed she did not have it and was ill with something else that wasn’t life threatening although it was very unpleasant. I found the photographer to be rude and disrespectful to me all day. Condescending about what he believed to be my level of intelligence and potential career prospects. All round I did not like him at all. Yet he continues to work with models to this day, many of whom describe him as ‘a strong personality who knows what he wants’ or ‘he likes a hard worker’. In this case how would I leave a reference? (I didn’t) Was it a personality clash? (Probably) Was I a snowflake for being unfit to work? (No) Was he a dick? (Yes) Dangerous? (Debatable, I know he pushed one model to work harder and caused her an injury because he kept asking for more, she’s a dance model) A predator? (No) would it be safe to safe our working relationship was incompatible? (Yes) there would be no way for me to accurately describe this experience or ‘warn’ anyone because what is there to warn about? I kept a job I shouldn’t have and the photographer was a bit of a twat. The end.

IMO the best way to ‘stay safe’ on this particular site is to report any bad experiences to admin privately so they can collate data and make a decision either way. Eg if someone is privately flagged up several times they can be removed long term.

Edited by Faye Taylor

This sets me thinking..... Consultants and other medical practitioners have  code words when writing to GPs in the knowledge that the patient will get a copy of the letter "This lovely lady".....

Perhaps any resident doctors can confirm this? MidgePhoto .

Perhaps models could devise a similar system when writing references? Photographers likewise perhaps?

CalmNudes unless you have been in their shoes it's hard to understand.

Some years ago I was in a situation where I felt I had to retract a didn't show reference in order to put an end to a difficult situation with a model. It's something I deeply regret having later learned that I wasn't the only person who had suffered "complications" with her.

FarmerSteve said

CalmNudes unless you have been in their shoes it's hard to understand.

Some years ago I was in a situation where I felt I had to retract a didn't show reference in order to put an end to a difficult situation with a model. It's something I deeply regret having later learned that I wasn't the only person who had suffered "complications" with her.

I can understand not wanting to say anything. I've worked in places where speaking up against some pretty awful conduct ruined the careers of those who spoke up, and taught the rest to stay silent. What I don't get is someone writing something positive. 

Kizer said

Simon Carter said

Roswell Ivory had an important message which might get overlooked - and applies to everyone involved in the modelography world.

"If you know that someone is a creep then stop working with them. Stand with us."

That includes people we might think of as friends.

Where money is concerned thats very unlikely to happen.

This is your comment, on a thread in which 13 models are speaking out about having done exactly that??

Hannah stopped working with him.

Faye never went back and shared her experience with other models.

Sophia warned every model she met afterwards, for years.

Kitty has publicised her story far and wide, to protect other models, despite being fairly new to the genre.

Scarlett had the predator ousted and barred from the studio before the shoot was even over.

Artemis wrote to the photographer concerned, and reported him to the site he booked her through. He was removed.

Lauren Jade communicated her distress to another model straight after the shoot, even though it was her *first ever shoot*.

Mark laughed off the photographer's advance, and didn't go back.

Faith confronted him then and there, and asked him to delete the pictures.

Lauren Kiley never went back.

Lucy never went back.

Penny went to the police, warned the entire model community, left negative references everywhere she was able, and was prepared to take the whole thing to court.

I gave a witness statement to the police, warned everyone I knew in the spanking community, & will stand up for health & safety on every set for the rest of my life as a result of my experience.

And every one of us stopped working with them, and stood together. Despite money being concerned.

CalmNudes said

Jerome Razoir , P R E S T O N I can understand not wanting to say anything, even at a pinch not wanting to tick the turned-up-but-not-recommended box. But to write something which is actually untrue, and makes you complicit in later acts of abuse ? Seems very odd to me. 

Difficult to accept, I agree but sadly difficult to understand is less so.

I sympathise with your view but am a bit more cynical perhaps.

Joceline Brooke-Hamilton Kizer I was thinking more about photographers who work with people they know are creeps, not just models.

Both often ignore their own concerns because

‘it’s only X’s way, everyone knows he’s like that’

or

‘loads of people work beyond their normal levels with Y, they know they can trust him and will get such good images.’

It can be difficult to decide whether information is just rumour or actionable evidence? For me, it’s when I hear one first hand report. That includes models and photographers, btw, but the number of models on the list is dwarfed by the number of photographers.

Simon Carter said

Joceline Brooke-Hamilton Kizer I was thinking more about photographers who work with people they know are creeps, not just models.

Both often ignore their own concerns because

‘it’s only X’s way, everyone knows he’s like that’

or

‘loads of people work beyond their normal levels with Y, they know they can trust him and will get such good images.’

It can be difficult to decide whether information is just rumour or actionable evidence? For me, it’s when I hear one first hand report. That includes models and photographers, btw, but the number of models on the list is dwarfed by the number of photographers.

Oh yes indeed, I agreed with what you were saying, I just don't agree that it's unlikely that people will eventually stand up to predators. I think it just takes a while (sometimes a long while) for models to get sufficient confidence to deal with every type of predatory behaviour. For example, I was capable of saying 'no' to anyone who tried to push my levels (in some ways at least) from quite early on in my career, but I found it hugely more difficult to cope with inappropriate conversation. I probably still do find that harder, because it's subtler. So I think most of us get there in the end, but a predator who's especially personable, or whose work is especially good, mighty get a lot of chances to abuse models before enough of us speak out loudly enough.

Joceline Brooke-Hamilton I totally agree with you - my post was aimed at Kizer but the reply button inserted your tag too.

Simon Carter said

Joceline Brooke-Hamilton Kizer I was thinking more about photographers who work with people they know are creeps, not just models.

Both often ignore their own concerns because

‘it’s only X’s way, everyone knows he’s like that’

or

‘loads of people work beyond their normal levels with Y, they know they can trust him and will get such good images.’

It can be difficult to decide whether information is just rumour or actionable evidence? For me, it’s when I hear one first hand report. That includes models and photographers, btw, but the number of models on the list is dwarfed by the number of photographers.

I don't think it works like that though, at least not in my experience.

I've been approached a few times by photographers who were evidently of the opinion that I shared the same predilections as themselves; I presume they assumed so simply because I'm male. That was the downfall of the individual I referred to earlier in this thread who was prosecuted for taking inappropriate photographs of young people in his care. Other times it's been contact details of under-age models and models who offer 'extras' (the 'little black book' scenario). What astounds me is the bravado and confidence with which they broached the subject with someone they essentially didn't know from Adam.

Consequently I'm of the opinion that those people who continue to associate with known creeps largely do so because they share some affinity with their behaviour, not because they think they're harmless or misunderstood.

art65 said

This sets me thinking..... Consultants and other medical practitioners have  code words when writing to GPs in the knowledge that the patient will get a copy of the letter "This lovely lady".....

Isn't that just irony? 

English provides many words which are of multiple meaning.

CalmNudes said

FarmerSteve said

CalmNudes unless you have been in their shoes it's hard to understand.

Some years ago I was in a situation where I felt I had to retract a didn't show reference in order to put an end to a difficult situation with a model. It's something I deeply regret having later learned that I wasn't the only person who had suffered "complications" with her.

I can understand not wanting to say anything. I've worked in places where speaking up against some pretty awful conduct ruined the careers of those who spoke up, and taught the rest to stay silent. What I don't get is someone writing something positive. 

Fear would be one of the biggest motivators - especially if the perpetrator is someone well known/popular, speak out against them or don't give them a positive reference & you fear that they will go around bad mouthing you.  Once someone has their coercive/manipulative claws into you it's hard to pull back & gain perspective, also it can all be overwhelming & they don't really understand what's happened until later on - especially with the really clever operators.  

P R E S T O N I didn’t say they were thought harmless or misunderstood.

Evidence of poor behaviour emerges only slowly. It’s easy to ignore the early rumours - and indeed mere rumours should be treated with some scepticism.

Unfortunately it’s easier to carry on ignoring the reports than it is to stop working with someone.

Doing so doesn’t mean you have an ‘affinity with their behaviour’ IME. It’s difficult to change how you view someone unless there’s a major event.

It’s harder still to actively challenge someone you consider a friend, especially when the evidence is all somewhat indirect.