Predatory Photographers & How To Handle Them

A J Simpson this is a dangerous fiction. Abusers are very, very good at hiding their behaviour.

A J Simpson said

Been aware of this problem for a long time, Warning models is one thing, maybe new models could contact photographers in that area, because the good photographers can pick up out the dodgy ones very quickly, The area I used to work had a network for photographers and models. anybody could contact the group for advice before agreeing to work with Somebody

This problem has gone on for years, way to long, so much so that I rarely shoot with models anymore.

Nope.
Several with great reputations been thrown off this site after getting away with abuse for years.
One currently in prison for it who was a great "White Knight".
All of them highly skilled at photography and at manipulating people.

Huw said

A J Simpson said

Been aware of this problem for a long time, Warning models is one thing, maybe new models could contact photographers in that area, because the good photographers can pick up out the dodgy ones very quickly, The area I used to work had a network for photographers and models. anybody could contact the group for advice before agreeing to work with Somebody

This problem has gone on for years, way to long, so much so that I rarely shoot with models anymore.

Nope.
Several with great reputations been thrown off this site after getting away with abuse for years.
One currently in prison for it who was a great "White Knight".
All of them highly skilled at photography and at manipulating people.

Yep, and still constantly hear some models I shoot with mention a couple of very popular and well known ones still on here as being serial level pushers and very manipulative. This is, of course, not reflected in their glowing references, sadly. 

Black Salad said

Yep, and still constantly hear some models I shoot with mention a couple of very popular and well known ones still on here as being serial level pushers and very manipulative. This is, of course, not reflected in their glowing references, sadly. 

And until that stops, the problem will just keep recurring.  :-(

A really clear and moving video that is not just a warning but gives good advice to new and experienced models who haven’t encountered a predator yet. I have been very lucky with the people I have worked with but I remember once having a photographer I knew personally and hadn’t shot with, show me photos of a model doing some erotic/art nude shots and started talking about the bits of their bodies that turned him on and gave me details of one model who was on her period. I felt really awkward but was ‘embarrassed’ to say anything. The alarm bells may have been ringing for the models in the shots but probably not. Predators are sometimes the ‘nicest’ people, which is what makes it so hard to call them on it.

Amy Burton-Smith said

A really clear and moving video that is not just a warning but gives good advice to new and experienced models who haven’t encountered a predator yet. I have been very lucky with the people I have worked with but I remember once having a photographer I knew personally and hadn’t shot with, show me photos of a model doing some erotic/art nude shots and started talking about the bits of their bodies that turned him on and gave me details of one model who was on her period. I felt really awkward but was ‘embarrassed’ to say anything. The alarm bells may have been ringing for the models in the shots but probably not. Predators are sometimes the ‘nicest’ people, which is what makes it so hard to call them on it.

Thank you. Urgh God, yes, that's totally inappropriate but it feels so difficult to say something. Cos it's not as obvious as a sexual assault (at least, not the way we're taught to recognise it) but I've also been put in that situation a couple of times and it's awful.  And yeah, predators who've learned to use a layer of 'niceness' to conceal what's actually going on are awful. It's why I thought Lauren Kiley's (the US model) story was so important to include.  It's less obvious than some of the other stories in some ways, but skin-crawling and creepy, and just as predatory.  Stay safe!

A J Simpson said

Been aware of this problem for a long time, Warning models is one thing, maybe new models could contact photographers in that area, because the good photographers can pick up out the dodgy ones very quickly, The area I used to work had a network for photographers and models. anybody could contact the group for advice before agreeing to work with Somebody

This problem has gone on for years, way to long, so much so that I rarely shoot with models anymore.

Sorry old chap but this is dangerous nonsense.  Some of the worst predators are pretty great photographers.

It is a sad fact that some models continue to work with predatory photographers despite knowing about their behaviour towards others.   Joceline Brooke-Hamilton video illustrates really clearly that many models have tolerated awful behaviour for a huge number of reasons, naivety, fear of losing work, fear of not being believed, financial worries being just a few of those reasons.  Seeing the really experienced models on the video will hopefully help models to network, share experiences and root out the predators.  

IMHO no photographer is in a position to act as a gatekeeper for these issues.  Why would any model trust the word of some old fart with a camera over the word of their peers who face the same issues all too frequently?

A J Simpson said

Been aware of this problem for a long time, Warning models is one thing, maybe new models could contact photographers in that area, because the good photographers can pick up out the dodgy ones very quickly, The area I used to work had a network for photographers and models. anybody could contact the group for advice before agreeing to work with Somebody

This problem has gone on for years, way to long, so much so that I rarely shoot with models anymore.

That is true (at least for some photographers) but it's not infallible. As a past studio owner/manager I can think of several instances where my instincts proved to be correct, and one photographer in particular who I reported to the Police and which resulted in him losing his job and being prosecuted for the abuse of young people in his care, who it turned out he had been photographing inappropriately.

Also, some years ago Roswell Ivory showed me some photographs taken of her during a shoot in which she was abused and I believe assaulted (I don't think it's the same incident as in the video). Her reason for doing so was to show me the expression on her face which she said reflected the way she felt during the shoot, and which I found disturbing to look at. A little while later a model I know well asked me what I thought about her shooting with a particular photographer and when I looked at his portfolio I saw the same expression on the models' faces, which worried me. So I explained the reason for my concern to the model, who was consequently prompted to take up private references, all of which came back AVOID despite the positive public references the models had left the photographer. So, quite clearly, Roswell Ivory's actions in sharing her observations about those photographs preserved at least one model from what was otherwise destined to be an unpleasant experience, or perhaps worse.

Photographers do have a role to play but it has to be done sensibly and respecting the wishes of any model who chooses to share their ordeal.

Well done, Joceline and to all of the participating models. Hannah's tearful reaction underlines the lasting trauma that can be caused by these shisters. So a special well done to you, Twinkle Nose (Hannah Aisling) . Thankyou for being so brave in your contribution to this excellent video.

Well done to Joceline and all those that have contributed. It is so sad that this still goes on unfortunately. But by continuing to highlight those so called photographers that are continuing to abuse then hopefully there will be less and less of them on PP and other sites.

Some time ago I gave thought to  a more sophisticatedreference system.

It was not taken up and I can understand why, it would have required more admin resources and was perhaps a little too complicated.

However, some way of making references less 'knee-jerk' in their composition would be some help.

I have, so far, never needed to give a model a bad reference'
I find myself trotting out similar, pretty crass comments reflexively.
I am sure this kind of 'repetition fatigue' must apply to models even more so as they tend to shoot more often.
The wish to not give a bad reference has been well covered here and I will not just repeat.
JUst say that I understand why models give a good reference when they want to give a bad one.

Net Model years ago had a confidential reference system. That appeared to be helpful but had problems of it's own. It was open to abuse.

How about this then? Like Ebay, references are on a scoring system.
No single reference can identify the person who left it.
Until the photographer (or model) has accumulated a set number (5 or 6?) then their references score shows a Pending notice.

When they have their 6, then a score will show.

This photographer has scored 97% for reliability, 98% for manners, 90% for communication, 3% for model safety. This is based on 6 shoots.
Please do not be too picky about the categories I have chosen, they were off the top of my head with little thought.
I am sure we could do better but what about the broad principle? The reference score could then be followed by a list of models with whom that photographer has worked.

A similar set up could work for models. Different categories, of course. I have been saddended and frustrated on several occasions when the only justifiable reference I could leave was a good one but there was something that I really wanted to say that was a negative. "Lovely person, tries hard, poses well but does not listen to a word you say and just goes through her set routine." ???

That is of course much, much less important than the models' safety and predatory photographers.

Edited by Jerome Razoir

P R E S T O N said

...private references, all of which came back AVOID despite the positive public references the models had left the photographer...

I've heard this before, and it baffled me then and now. Why do people leave positive references for someone who should be avoided?  

CalmNudes said

P R E S T O N said

...private references, all of which came back AVOID despite the positive public references the models had left the photographer...

I've heard this before, and it baffled me then and now. Why do people leave positive references for someone who should be avoided?  

Hard to accept I agree but the reasons are simple.

Fear: of not getting more work because coming across as awkward.
Embarrassment: I do not want people knowing that I had a hard time.
Financial: I have to work with him again because I am behind with my rent.
Bullying: the bastard has made it very clear that if she says anything, to any one or leaves a bad reference he will make sure she is thrown of PP and never gets any more work.

Re references, any public system of reporting a bad experience is far too open to abuse. Plus the threat of a ‘bad reference’ is enough to possibly encourage a model to continue a bad shoot. Also one persons score for manners and modesty could completely conflict with someone else based purely on personality. Same for reliability.

Many years ago I had norovirus and had to cancel some shoots at late notice. One photographer did not want to cancel and came to shoot me even though I clearly was not fit. (It’s my fault I should’ve insisted on cancelling but didn’t want the dreaded blue face bad feedback for cancelling) He complained I wasn’t fit and that another model he had recently worked with had meningitis and she was fine to model unlike me who didn’t have the stamina. I knew the model and I’d seen her recently so I was concerned not only that she had meningitis but that also I may have contracted it. A quick call to her revealed she did not have it and was ill with something else that wasn’t life threatening although it was very unpleasant. I found the photographer to be rude and disrespectful to me all day. Condescending about what he believed to be my level of intelligence and potential career prospects. All round I did not like him at all. Yet he continues to work with models to this day, many of whom describe him as ‘a strong personality who knows what he wants’ or ‘he likes a hard worker’. In this case how would I leave a reference? (I didn’t) Was it a personality clash? (Probably) Was I a snowflake for being unfit to work? (No) Was he a dick? (Yes) Dangerous? (Debatable, I know he pushed one model to work harder and caused her an injury because he kept asking for more, she’s a dance model) A predator? (No) would it be safe to safe our working relationship was incompatible? (Yes) there would be no way for me to accurately describe this experience or ‘warn’ anyone because what is there to warn about? I kept a job I shouldn’t have and the photographer was a bit of a twat. The end.

IMO the best way to ‘stay safe’ on this particular site is to report any bad experiences to admin privately so they can collate data and make a decision either way. Eg if someone is privately flagged up several times they can be removed long term.

Edited by Faye Taylor

CalmNudes said

P R E S T O N said

...private references, all of which came back AVOID despite the positive public references the models had left the photographer...

I've heard this before, and it baffled me then and now. Why do people leave positive references for someone who should be avoided?  

Well, to me the reason is pretty obvious.

It's not too dissimilar to modelling sites which do not generally permit naming and shaming due to the potential consequences for the site. Put yourself in an abused model's shoes and consider whether or not he/she might reasonably expect any consequences should he/she ascribe a negative public reference to an abusive and coercive photographer.

Public references should come with a 'government health warning'.