Predatory Photographers & How To Handle Them

Right, real World cat among the pigeons reply.

Of course there is absolutely no excuse for inappropriate behaviour but, it cuts both ways. There are many models who offer extras and/or work way above their states levels and yes, some on this site. This taints all, mods and togs alike but I fear, it always was and will ever be, especially where relatively high levels of money are involved. 

£0.02

As much as I'd like to suggest a good, swift kick in the knackers, I feel this isn't particularly constructive feedback.

This is a brilliant idea and a really effective way to help newer models before they've made trustworthy contacts, as you said. Well done to all of you for your bravery and support of one another. We need more groups like this looking out for each other.

My deepest respect to all these models who are so brave sharing their stories and Joceline Brooke-Hamilton another great video you’ve made that points out this problem. Keep on doing this great work (y) and great that you also found a male model that had a similar experience and shows that not only women are victims of these predators. Kudos to all!

Really look forward to watching it, thanks for producing :)

PixelSharp said

Right, real World cat among the pigeons reply.

Of course there is absolutely no excuse for inappropriate behaviour but, it cuts both ways. There are many models who offer extras and/or work way above their states levels and yes, some on this site. This taints all, mods and togs alike but I fear, it always was and will ever be, especially where relatively high levels of money are involved. 

£0.02

No it doesn't. It only taints others by association if one is stupid enough to believe in guilt by association.
If a model lists her top level as art nude but sometimes shoots adult that is her business and hers alone.
There is no con going on.
She is not tricking anyone. She is doing whatever levels she wants under whatever circumstances she chooses.

I had  a chat with a model many years ago and she had said she woud never do nude. At the time Tatler had just published an edition with a nude on the front cover.
I asked her if she would pose nude for Vogue.
Her response was, "Of course I would. I am not daft."
HER CHOICE.

If a photographer books a model and then asks for, bullies for or tricks that model into doing something she does not want to do that is WRONG.

My overall attitude to people being free to do what they want is best summed up as:

Every individual is entitled to the maximum possible amount of personal freedom.
That freedom is 'purchased' by an equal amount of responsibility.
If a model WANTS to do XYZ then she should be free to do so without being sniped at BUT the line above applies.

The crux of all of this is lack of meaningful* consent.
NO CONSENT.
NO HAPPEN.
End of discussion.

FarmerSteve is sadly bang on when he says that the sort of predator encountered in this world will be less interested in a model who is happy to comply with his needs.
Because his need is to be doing what he is doing without the model consenting or enjoying it.
It is all about weak men wanting to feel strong.

I shoot some very strong stuff. I make no secret of it.
I warn models who do not shoot adult that I do shoot adult.
I then say that if they do not want to be associated with a photographer known for adult stuff, they should not shoot with me.
I also shoot some much milder stuff.
If I book a model for clothed fashion or portraits.Guess what THAT IS WHAT WE SHOOT.

*Consent is not consent if it is not meaningful consent.
That is, the consent must be freely and knowingly given and must include the model fully understanding what she is going to be doing.
Do nt suddenly spring a portrait shot of the model cuddling a kitten if she is alergic to cats!
It must be open and truthful.
A man asking a model to do blurp-diddle and she says she will but does not know what blurp-didde is and he then says that she has to do it now because she consented is a bully and a pratt.
That is clearly a silly exaggeration but is how some of these bastards operate.

Malbon said

Excellent liberation work as always.

I often think this is a manifestation of a wider problem which appears in other domains, which might be described as non-consensual objectification.

The predator has objectified the subject in advance to such an extent that they are not able to establish a "normal", healthy human rapport with them. They are not able to see them as a real person, and thus do not feel the compassion, empathy, or respect for preferences that is required in any real-world interaction. I have characterised this elsewhere as the "Simulacra" problem, which describes a phenomenon most associated with the crossover between online interactions and real-world experiences. Put very simply it means that once someone has registered you as an object, rather than as a real person, it can be very difficult to shift or amend that perception. They don't actually think you are real, and as a result their behaviour towards you can range from unreasonable to appallingly abusive.

Sadly my own experience in trying to provide guidance/education for other people is that you often find you cannot succeed in even leading them to the bloody water, never mind get them to drink.

But it's still important that people try, and perhaps the most important thing is to articulate the true nature of the problem, to get it on the table, to expose what abusive behaviour actually looks and feels like to the people who have had to suffer it.

In which you succeed admirably :)

Thank you, that's a really useful take on it. Cos I've always wondered how they're capable of behaving this way, without thinking how awful it'd be if someone else treated their wife/daughter/whoever like that. And yes, I can see that if they've managed to objectify you in preparation, that probably makes it much easier. Yuk. Thanks for contributing.

Thanks for sharing. I am left with the thought that most of the proactive work done to raise awareness and all the model safety groups are created, facilitated and run by the models themselves. The organisations that create the environment that allow photographers and models to connect for shoots and earn a fee doing so, seem to play a far more reactive role - ie when something has gone wrong or providing guidelines that are not particularly engaging, for those that need to be engaged. I feel your job would be easier if this type of initiative was also seen to come from the sites and agencies who allow the shoots to be booked

Edited by Gerry99111

Absolutely amazing and admirable. Well done to you and all included in the video. So many of us models have been through bad experiences when starting out that things need to be said. We all need to support each other and especially new models that are starting out. We are all human beings and deserve respect. Thank you for sharing this video and even gave me food for thought even though I have many years experience. ��. Best of luck to each and every one of us. I have been very fortunate to work with some amazing photographers that have become friends. Xx

Jerome Razoir said

PixelSharp said

Right, real World cat among the pigeons reply.

Of course there is absolutely no excuse for inappropriate behaviour but, it cuts both ways. There are many models who offer extras and/or work way above their states levels and yes, some on this site. This taints all, mods and togs alike but I fear, it always was and will ever be, especially where relatively high levels of money are involved. 

£0.02

No it doesn't. It only taints others by association if one is stupid enough to believe in guilt by association.
If a model lists her top level as art nude but sometimes shoots adult that is her business and hers alone.
There is no con going on.
She is not tricking anyone. She is doing whatever levels she wants under whatever circumstances she chooses.

I had  a chat with a model many years ago and she had said she woud never do nude. At the time Tatler had just published an edition with a nude on the front cover.
I asked her if she would pose nude for Vogue.
Her response was, "Of course I would. I am not daft."
HER CHOICE.

If a photographer books a model and then asks for, bullies for or tricks that model into doing something she does not want to do that is WRONG.

My overall attitude to people being free to do what they want is best summed up as:

Every individual is entitled to the maximum possible amount of personal freedom.
That freedom is 'purchased' by an equal amount of responsibility.
If a model WANTS to do XYZ then she should be free to do so without being sniped at BUT the line above applies.

The crux of all of this is lack of meaningful* consent.
NO CONSENT.
NO HAPPEN.
End of discussion.

FarmerSteve is sadly bang on when he says that the sort of predator encountered in this world will be less interested in a model who is happy to comply with his needs.
Because his need is to be doing what he is doing without the model consenting or enjoying it.
It is all about weak men wanting to feel strong.

I shoot some very strong stuff. I make no secret of it.
I warn models who do not shoot adult that I do shoot adult.
I then say that if they do not want to be associated with a photographer known for adult stuff, they should not shoot with me.
I also shoot some much milder stuff.
If I book a model for clothed fashion or portraits.Guess what THAT IS WHAT WE SHOOT.

*Consent is not consent if it is not meaningful consent.
That is, the consent must be freely and knowingly given and must include the model fully understanding what she is going to be doing.
Do nt suddenly spring a portrait shot of the model cuddling a kitten if she is alergic to cats!
It must be open and truthful.
A man asking a model to do blurp-diddle and she says she will but does not know what blurp-didde is and he then says that she has to do it now because she consented is a bully and a pratt.
That is clearly a silly exaggeration but is how some of these bastards operate.

Absolutely 100%

PixelSharp - your essential point seems to be “I think some models are prostitutes therefore all models are fair game” is frankly appalling and is the kind of deflection and gaslighting that keeps enabling such behaviour among those who indulge in such predatory behaviour. 

The point has been made, but bears repeating again, - such behaviour is about power, the sexual element is only a vehicle. Most of the gratification that such inadequate men get from this stuff comes from the horror that they can see and feel from their victims. 

... should also add- immense kudos to Joceline Brooke-Hamilton for making this video and all the models who contributed!

PixelSharp said

Right, real World cat among the pigeons reply.

Of course there is absolutely no excuse for inappropriate behaviour but, it cuts both ways. There are many models who offer extras and/or work way above their states levels and yes, some on this site. This taints all, mods and togs alike but I fear, it always was and will ever be, especially where relatively high levels of money are involved. 

£0.02

I cannot for the life of me see how anyone watching this video would think that the participants in this video somehow aren't 'living in the real world'. We're real people, with real jobs, earning a real living, working with real photographers. Some of whom, unfortunately, turn out to be real predators.

Knowing that some models are also escorts is in no way any sort of excuse for trying to coerce anyone into anything. Even if the very model you booked is also an escort, if you didn't communicate your wish to hire her for that when you booked her, it's in no way appropriate to trick her, manipulate her, or force her into an interaction she'd not consented to.

I don't know why on earth you'd want to unleash this particularly unwelcome cat among the pigeons, when the 'pigeons' in this instance are models (of whom none, to the best of my knowledge, are escorts as it happens) who've been brave and honest enough to share their horrible experiences, some of which extend to sexual assault.

But whatever you mean by 'it cuts both ways', I want to be very clear:

The fact that some models might also work as escorts doesn't mean it's their fault that Lucy Lauren was subjected to such a horrible experience that she couldn't even talk about it for 5 years.  It was the photographers fault

It's not escorts' fault that I was left bleeding and need in need of an HIV test because a producer was so greedy for content that he didn't care about what happened to my body.

It's not the fault of any escort that the commercial photographer who assaulted Penny Dreadful should have felt entitled to grope her. It's his fault.

It wasn't an escorts' fault that Faye Taylor should have been trapped into staying overnight with a photographer who specifically planned it that way.That's on him.

The existence of escorts in this world does not entitle anyone, ever, to disregard the consent of another human being. Any more than the existence of predatory photographers in this world should entitle me to just kick every photographer I meet in the balls, on the off chance that they deserve it.

While I find your comment quite disrespectful, most of all I find it irrelevant.

Iris Ferret said

As much as I'd like to suggest a good, swift kick in the knackers, I feel this isn't particularly constructive feedback.

This is a brilliant idea and a really effective way to help newer models before they've made trustworthy contacts, as you said. Well done to all of you for your bravery and support of one another. We need more groups like this looking out for each other.

Raymond | PictureByRAY said

My deepest respect to all these models who are so brave sharing their stories and Joceline Brooke-Hamilton another great video you’ve made that points out this problem. Keep on doing this great work (y) and great that you also found a male model that had a similar experience and shows that not only women are victims of these predators. Kudos to all!

Vassili said

Really look forward to watching it, thanks for producing :)

MarS said

... should also add- immense kudos to Joceline Brooke-Hamilton for making this video and all the models who contributed!

Thanks everyone! It was quite painful to make but I desperately hope that it helps.

luluhart said

Absolutely amazing and admirable. Well done to you and all included in the video. So many of us models have been through bad experiences when starting out that things need to be said. We all need to support each other and especially new models that are starting out. We are all human beings and deserve respect. Thank you for sharing this video and even gave me food for thought even though I have many years experience. ��. Best of luck to each and every one of us. I have been very fortunate to work with some amazing photographers that have become friends. Xx

Thank you, honestly, me too. Hearing models describe situations that are a little different from things I've experienced has given me the opportunity to 'rehearse' in my head how I'd ideally handle similar in the future.  And also, hearing models talk about their experiences made me feel so angry for them, cos it sounds so inappropriate from the outside. Whereas when I've experienced similar myself, I've often thought it was cos I'd maybe done something wrong. So although it was quite painful to watch and edit, it sort of made me feel a bit kinder to myself too. Cos knowing that other models who I really respect have experienced similar treatment and haven't always managed to challenge it at the time, just like me made me blame myself a little less. So I hope it does similar for other people who watch it xx

PixelSharp said

Right, real World cat among the pigeons reply.

Of course there is absolutely no excuse for inappropriate behaviour but, it cuts both ways. There are many models who offer extras and/or work way above their states levels and yes, some on this site. This taints all, mods and togs alike but I fear, it always was and will ever be, especially where relatively high levels of money are involved. 

£0.02

You're on shakey ground here. I've been shooting for 17 years, and I've never had a model offer me any kind of "extras". We're all sure that it does happen its pretty damn rare (like people who make money from modelling and don't tell HMRC). And the model whose profile says she strictly a "pants on" girl and bares her Boris for a select few ? Yep that happens for all sort of reasons, including the perfectly valid, happy to do X when they feel secure, but won't offer to to do X with all and sundry. BUT "Cuts both ways" ???? Seriously ??? I hope you've mis-spoken and didn't intend to imply predatory behaviour towards anyone is OK. Trying to sneak a sly grope in, all way up to to rapists using photography as a cover, should have no apologists. "When high levels of money are involved"... for pity's sake, paying top dollar for model to appear in front of a camera doesn't buy "hands on access", thinking it does should put one on a fast track to jail. 

Joceline Brooke-Hamilton said

I've been working on a new video for my YouTube channel, & have been joined by a fabulous collection of other freelance models - between us we have over 130 years of experience, and we want to use it to light the way for new models.

Content warning; sexual assault

Back in 2004 when I was still a new model, I met a more experienced model for the first time. And she warned me about 3 photographers. "He's perfectly fine, but he'll say your skin looks dry, and he'll try to rub baby oil onto your body. Tell him you'll do it yourself". "He steals models' knickers; I won't work for him any more".  "He's set up a hidden camera in the bathroom where models get changed". As I met more models, I started collecting warnings, and I very much appreciated them. As I gained more experience, I started handing my knowledge on to my sister models in return.  And the network of models, communicating with each other, is one of the most powerful tools we have for keeping each other safe.

But it'll never be possible to warn every new model about every predatory photographer, and by the time newcomers make contact with experienced models, they might already have had some bad experiences.  So the best thing I could think of doing, was to make a collaborative video with my fellow models in which we share our experiences, and what we've learned as a result. Because a lot of bad behaviour on shoots falls into fairly predictable patterns, and when you can anticipate, you can often do a better job of protecting yourself.

Thank you so much to the brilliant models who shared their stories. Some of them are hard to listen to (editing it made me cry), but I really hope that they might help equip other models to challenge predatory behaviour, and stay safer.

Your video and this (and several other discussion threads on PP) show that there needs to be a paradigm change in the way we (as a society and via the legal system) deal with sexual crimes, the sex offenders and the victims of sexual crimes.

For example, only a very small percentage of rape cases get to trial and even fewer result in a conviction. To cut a long story short, not all of the women are liars. OK, Not all of the accused will be guilty, but far too many are getting away with it due to legal loopholes etc...

It does not take too much to imagine, the predator photographers you describe, getting away with this for years, decades. Nothing being done.

Just like Jimmy Saville , Stewart Hall, Rolf Harris etc.....