Still don’t understand how photographers are doing this

I find it funny how the OP is complaining about apparently 'inexperienced' people making money from modelling/photography, yet I can see he's recently put out a TF casting looking for experienced models to help him rebuild his portfolio.

So let me get this straight, you don't think people should be making money so early on in the game, yet you think its acceptable to expect experienced models to work for free to help you achieve a better portfolio? Bearing in mind you currently only have 6 positive refs and a very limited portfolio. It goes without saying, you should be offering money for the casting. 

On the rare occasion I shoot TF, I look for photographers with similar experience levels to myself. If you're looking for a TF model, I'd say you should be looking to work with newbie/amateur models as in my view, that would reflect the current status of your portfolio. 

Is the pile on enough now?

There's so much that the op has a good excuse not to bother reading it 😃

Theres really no big rules to meeting people and planning a shoot. Don't let people put you down. What's important is what you agree with the other participants and that you have a good respectful time.

Edited by Wondrous

This is an interesting topic and to be honest I also wondered many times how some photographers manage to make a living of that, I am not talking specifically about PP here.
For me, portrait photography is a hobby and I never thought of it as a business opportunity.
Sure, I could you use some additional money to realise my dream, which is to buy a nice cosy property in the centre of Edinburgh… But I digress.
The fact is that some togs manage to live exclusively of that. Take a photographer like Sagaj for instance (you can find him on Instagram), apart from the fact that all his models, at least the ones he features, are teenagers who are all exceptionally gifted look-wise, I personally find that his work is nothing special if not very uninspired and repetitive, in my opinion he’s even processing it too much to the point where his models look like dolls and not human beings, it’s really too much, one could argue that it’s exactly what women want to look like nowadays and that he’s selling what the buyer wants… But I digress again.
So this guy is travelling the world, posting where he will be at which date and telling people to contact him for work If interested (and I can only assume that his rates are not low).
Thing is, people are obviously queuing to pay for his work… And, talking with models in my area, to some extent the same happens here as well. Then you look at that specific tog’s work and you’re not impressed.
Anyway, my point is, it’s obviously not only the quality of work that comes into play here. I see some tog works around that are inspired, of great quality and technic but also very emotional and original but they could never do what this guy does. Speaking of myself, the best compliment about my work I ever received is to have models whom main purpose is not to make money to ask to work with me again. I received a few (and I insist on “a few” here) proposals to work TF but that’s about it. I’ve been doing that for five years now and it never happened that someone proposed to retribute me for my work, not even once. Again, I don’t care, but in the light of that, it’s clear that the togs on here who think they will make a living from that are delusional at best, at least in my opinion.
So, to get back to the main topic. What is really needed to become a full-time portrait photographer? Kissing asses around, buying followers so people think you’re popular, changing your artist name to something more fancy? Shooting popular people so more people see your work and they think they will become popular too?
What are your thoughts about that?

Emma Jayne said

[snip]

On the rare occasion I shoot TF, I look for photographers with similar experience levels to myself. If you're looking for a TF model, I'd say you should be looking to work with newbie/amateur models as in my view, that would reflect the current status of your portfolio. 

For TF I'd agree, but as has been suggested many times, if the OP wishes to progress he'd be better off paying for some experienced models to help him.

RaphaelPhoto said

This is an interesting topic and to be honest I also wondered many times how some photographers manage to make a living of that, I am not talking specifically about PP here.
For me, portrait photography is a hobby and I never thought of it as a business opportunity.
Sure, I could you use some additional money to realise my dream, which is to buy a nice cosy property in the centre of Edinburgh… But I digress.
The fact is that some togs manage to live exclusively of that. Take a photographer like Sagaj for instance (you can find him on Instagram), apart from the fact that all his models, at least the ones he features, are teenagers who are all exceptionally gifted look-wise, I personally find that his work is nothing special if not very uninspired and repetitive, in my opinion he’s even processing it too much to the point where his models look like dolls and not human beings, it’s really too much, one could argue that it’s exactly what women want to look like nowadays and that he’s selling what the buyer wants… But I digress again.
So this guy is travelling the world, posting where he will be at which date and telling people to contact him for work If interested (and I can only assume that his rates are not low).
Thing is, people are obviously queuing to pay for his work… And, talking with models in my area, to some extent the same happens here as well. Then you look at that specific tog’s work and you’re not impressed.
Anyway, my point is, it’s obviously not only the quality of work that comes into play here. I see some tog works around that are inspired, of great quality and technic but also very emotional and original but they could never do what this guy does. Speaking of myself, the best compliment about my work I ever received is to have models whom main purpose is not to make money to ask to work with me again. I received a few (and I insist on “a few” here) proposals to work TF but that’s about it. I’ve been doing that for five years now and it never happened that someone proposed to retribute me for my work, not even once. Again, I don’t care, but in the light of that, it’s clear that the togs on here who think they will make a living from that are delusional at best, at least in my opinion.
So, to get back to the main topic. What is really needed to become a full-time portrait photographer? Kissing asses around, buying followers so people think you’re popular, changing your artist name to something more fancy? Shooting popular people so more people see your work and they think they will become popular too?
What are your thoughts about that?

Out of curiosity I looked up the guy you named and I would be happy to work with him, his portfolio is lovely.

I really dont see what point your making by naming him specifically.

Maybe you remember discussing a TF shoot with me a while ago...

Models will never pay you. You need to be thinking outside of models paying you because it will not happen.

And to work with brands etc, you need to build a really strong professional level portfolio. Possibly even with experienced models who will require their rates or at least travel to be paid.

As you may remember, your portfolio was not of a high enough standard for me to consider footing the £10 train ticket for our shoot. There are hundreds of incredible photographers out there, lots of them even pay travel expenses, so you have high competition even for TF shoots.

I don't wish to be rude but if you remember, when I expressed that I prefer my travel to be paid, you refused to answer me for days, then told me you presumed the shoot had been cancelled. A simple yes/no would have been absolutely fine, but ignoring your model's communication is very unprofessional.

My advice: practice taking photos of models, maybe even pay some travel expenses or rates. Be professional in all your communications. Don't throw your toys out of the pram if a model sends you her rates or wants travel covered. You're welcome to say no but it's usually best to clarify whether or not the shoot is cancelled, instead of ignoring and hoping for the best. That's how you get late cancellation/did not show up references 😉

Bridal Path Media said

RaphaelPhoto said

This is an interesting topic and to be honest I also wondered many times how some photographers manage to make a living of that, I am not talking specifically about PP here.
For me, portrait photography is a hobby and I never thought of it as a business opportunity.
Sure, I could you use some additional money to realise my dream, which is to buy a nice cosy property in the centre of Edinburgh… But I digress.
The fact is that some togs manage to live exclusively of that. Take a photographer like Sagaj for instance (you can find him on Instagram), apart from the fact that all his models, at least the ones he features, are teenagers who are all exceptionally gifted look-wise, I personally find that his work is nothing special if not very uninspired and repetitive, in my opinion he’s even processing it too much to the point where his models look like dolls and not human beings, it’s really too much, one could argue that it’s exactly what women want to look like nowadays and that he’s selling what the buyer wants… But I digress again.
So this guy is travelling the world, posting where he will be at which date and telling people to contact him for work If interested (and I can only assume that his rates are not low).
Thing is, people are obviously queuing to pay for his work… And, talking with models in my area, to some extent the same happens here as well. Then you look at that specific tog’s work and you’re not impressed.
Anyway, my point is, it’s obviously not only the quality of work that comes into play here. I see some tog works around that are inspired, of great quality and technic but also very emotional and original but they could never do what this guy does. Speaking of myself, the best compliment about my work I ever received is to have models whom main purpose is not to make money to ask to work with me again. I received a few (and I insist on “a few” here) proposals to work TF but that’s about it. I’ve been doing that for five years now and it never happened that someone proposed to retribute me for my work, not even once. Again, I don’t care, but in the light of that, it’s clear that the togs on here who think they will make a living from that are delusional at best, at least in my opinion.
So, to get back to the main topic. What is really needed to become a full-time portrait photographer? Kissing asses around, buying followers so people think you’re popular, changing your artist name to something more fancy? Shooting popular people so more people see your work and they think they will become popular too?
What are your thoughts about that?

Out of curiosity I looked up the guy you named and I would be happy to work with him, his portfolio is lovely.

I really dont see what point your making by naming him specifically.

By naming him specifically, I intended to show a specific example of a portrait photographer who can not only make a living of his craft but who is also very successful while, in my opinion, having a portfllio that is nothing stratospheric. I see everyday art that impresses my far more and it is from togs that are basically completely unknown. Yes, his portfolio is lovely, but many others also have lovely portfolios too and they don't have the opportunity to travel the world and getting paid from models (including top models) where they are will. Most can't even manage to get paid where they are based...
Also, not to boast, people who worked with me also know I am extremely critical and demanding towards the work I produce, but honestly, you give me the same models, I am pretty confident I would create work of the same quality if not better, not even putting much effort into it.

RaphaelPhoto said

This is an interesting topic and to be honest I also wondered many times how some photographers manage to make a living of that, I am not talking specifically about PP here.
For me, portrait photography is a hobby and I never thought of it as a business opportunity.
Sure, I could you use some additional money to realise my dream, which is to buy a nice cosy property in the centre of Edinburgh… But I digress.
The fact is that some togs manage to live exclusively of that. Take a photographer like Sagaj for instance (you can find him on Instagram), apart from the fact that all his models, at least the ones he features, are teenagers who are all exceptionally gifted look-wise, I personally find that his work is nothing special if not very uninspired and repetitive, in my opinion he’s even processing it too much to the point where his models look like dolls and not human beings, it’s really too much, one could argue that it’s exactly what women want to look like nowadays and that he’s selling what the buyer wants… But I digress again.
So this guy is travelling the world, posting where he will be at which date and telling people to contact him for work If interested (and I can only assume that his rates are not low).
Thing is, people are obviously queuing to pay for his work… And, talking with models in my area, to some extent the same happens here as well. Then you look at that specific tog’s work and you’re not impressed.
Anyway, my point is, it’s obviously not only the quality of work that comes into play here. I see some tog works around that are inspired, of great quality and technic but also very emotional and original but they could never do what this guy does. Speaking of myself, the best compliment about my work I ever received is to have models whom main purpose is not to make money to ask to work with me again. I received a few (and I insist on “a few” here) proposals to work TF but that’s about it. I’ve been doing that for five years now and it never happened that someone proposed to retribute me for my work, not even once. Again, I don’t care, but in the light of that, it’s clear that the togs on here who think they will make a living from that are delusional at best, at least in my opinion.
So, to get back to the main topic. What is really needed to become a full-time portrait photographer? Kissing asses around, buying followers so people think you’re popular, changing your artist name to something more fancy? Shooting popular people so more people see your work and they think they will become popular too?
What are your thoughts about that?

Hi Raphael, 

You are right, this is an interesting topic and you have made some interesting observations.

I am a full-time photographer and make my living from photography.  To make a living I don't think that you have to do the things you suggest.  I certainly don't kiss anyone's ass and have never bought  social media followers (indeed I don't make much use of social media.) I can't even remember when I last posted on Instagram, when I did it was probably a phone snapshot of my local area when I was out walking my dogs.

What is really needed to become a full-time photographer is a lot of hard work, networking, advertising, and chasing down leads.  To be fair, I also invested in myself.  I completed a few photography courses at my then local university and went on to study full-time for a Master's Degree in commercial photography.  I joined the Royal Photographic Society as my Master's degree entitled me to be an associate of the RPS.  

One huge benefit of my studies was that they gave me access to successful commercial photographers, publishers, gallery curators, mentors, and photographer's agents.  These people have been very generous with their time, advice, and assistance.  I also spent some time as an assisting photographer with some high-profile photographers.  

PP is a place to have fun, it is not a place for photographers to find clients.  My most recent commercial job was with an international food company, they wanted industrial photographs of an updated processing facility and of staff working there, unsurprisingly they didn't find me through Purpleport.  

The point I am trying to make is that you need to identify your market and then ensure that people in that market know that you exist and what you can provide at a price they are willing to pay.  It really is that simple, but many of those who want to make a living with their camera seem not to understand the market, even when it is pointed out to them time and time again.

Alan Ewart said

RaphaelPhoto said

This is an interesting topic and to be honest I also wondered many times how some photographers manage to make a living of that, I am not talking specifically about PP here.
For me, portrait photography is a hobby and I never thought of it as a business opportunity.
Sure, I could you use some additional money to realise my dream, which is to buy a nice cosy property in the centre of Edinburgh… But I digress.
The fact is that some togs manage to live exclusively of that. Take a photographer like Sagaj for instance (you can find him on Instagram), apart from the fact that all his models, at least the ones he features, are teenagers who are all exceptionally gifted look-wise, I personally find that his work is nothing special if not very uninspired and repetitive, in my opinion he’s even processing it too much to the point where his models look like dolls and not human beings, it’s really too much, one could argue that it’s exactly what women want to look like nowadays and that he’s selling what the buyer wants… But I digress again.
So this guy is travelling the world, posting where he will be at which date and telling people to contact him for work If interested (and I can only assume that his rates are not low).
Thing is, people are obviously queuing to pay for his work… And, talking with models in my area, to some extent the same happens here as well. Then you look at that specific tog’s work and you’re not impressed.
Anyway, my point is, it’s obviously not only the quality of work that comes into play here. I see some tog works around that are inspired, of great quality and technic but also very emotional and original but they could never do what this guy does. Speaking of myself, the best compliment about my work I ever received is to have models whom main purpose is not to make money to ask to work with me again. I received a few (and I insist on “a few” here) proposals to work TF but that’s about it. I’ve been doing that for five years now and it never happened that someone proposed to retribute me for my work, not even once. Again, I don’t care, but in the light of that, it’s clear that the togs on here who think they will make a living from that are delusional at best, at least in my opinion.
So, to get back to the main topic. What is really needed to become a full-time portrait photographer? Kissing asses around, buying followers so people think you’re popular, changing your artist name to something more fancy? Shooting popular people so more people see your work and they think they will become popular too?
What are your thoughts about that?

Hi Raphael, 

You are right, this is an interesting topic and you have made some interesting observations.

I am a full-time photographer and make my living from photography.  To make a living I don't think that you have to do the things you suggest.  I certainly don't kiss anyone's ass and have never bought  social media followers (indeed I don't make much use of social media.) I can't even remember when I last posted on Instagram, when I did it was probably a phone snapshot of my local area when I was out walking my dogs.

What is really needed to become a full-time photographer is a lot of hard work, networking, advertising, and chasing down leads.  To be fair, I also invested in myself.  I completed a few photography courses at my then local university and went on to study full-time for a Master's Degree in commercial photography.  I joined the Royal Photographic Society as my Master's degree entitled me to be an associate of the RPS.  

One huge benefit of my studies was that they gave me access to successful commercial photographers, publishers, gallery curators, mentors, and photographer's agents.  These people have been very generous with their time, advice, and assistance.  I also spent some time as an assisting photographer with some high-profile photographers.  

PP is a place to have fun, it is not a place for photographers to find clients.  My most recent commercial job was with an international food company, they wanted industrial photographs of an updated processing facility and of staff working there, unsurprisingly they didn't find me through Purpleport.  

The point I am trying to make is that you need to identify your market and then ensure that people in that market know that you exist and what you can provide at a price they are willing to pay.  It really is that simple, but many of those who want to make a living with their camera seem not to understand the market, even when it is pointed out to them time and time again.

Thank you for your insight, Alan.
I think the key word in your answer is "networking". I used to naively think that people would come to you when they see the quality of your work but no, unfortunately it doesn’t work that way.
As a matter of fact, it’s not even specific to photography, it’s the same when it comes to music or even the businesses that have nothing to do with art, the corporate companies I have worked with all advertise themselves like crazy, networking all the time, on Linkedin and what not, going to conferences, conventions etc. In fact, it’s what the marketing departments are for.
You can produce the most innovative and qualitative products, if you don’t contact the right people to sell them or at the very least give them a minimum of exposure to a specific market, you’re not gonna sell anything, it’s the way it is.
As far as I am concerned, it is too much work and I don’t even have the time available to do that on the side of my job, which is already very time and energy consuming by itself, so it will keep it as it is, a hobby and that’s perfectly fine, house in Edinburgh will have to wait a bit more, no big deal :)

Alan Ewart said

RaphaelPhoto said

This is an interesting topic and to be honest I also wondered many times how some photographers manage to make a living of that, I am not talking specifically about PP here.
For me, portrait photography is a hobby and I never thought of it as a business opportunity.
Sure, I could you use some additional money to realise my dream, which is to buy a nice cosy property in the centre of Edinburgh… But I digress.
The fact is that some togs manage to live exclusively of that. Take a photographer like Sagaj for instance (you can find him on Instagram), apart from the fact that all his models, at least the ones he features, are teenagers who are all exceptionally gifted look-wise, I personally find that his work is nothing special if not very uninspired and repetitive, in my opinion he’s even processing it too much to the point where his models look like dolls and not human beings, it’s really too much, one could argue that it’s exactly what women want to look like nowadays and that he’s selling what the buyer wants… But I digress again.
So this guy is travelling the world, posting where he will be at which date and telling people to contact him for work If interested (and I can only assume that his rates are not low).
Thing is, people are obviously queuing to pay for his work… And, talking with models in my area, to some extent the same happens here as well. Then you look at that specific tog’s work and you’re not impressed.
Anyway, my point is, it’s obviously not only the quality of work that comes into play here. I see some tog works around that are inspired, of great quality and technic but also very emotional and original but they could never do what this guy does. Speaking of myself, the best compliment about my work I ever received is to have models whom main purpose is not to make money to ask to work with me again. I received a few (and I insist on “a few” here) proposals to work TF but that’s about it. I’ve been doing that for five years now and it never happened that someone proposed to retribute me for my work, not even once. Again, I don’t care, but in the light of that, it’s clear that the togs on here who think they will make a living from that are delusional at best, at least in my opinion.
So, to get back to the main topic. What is really needed to become a full-time portrait photographer? Kissing asses around, buying followers so people think you’re popular, changing your artist name to something more fancy? Shooting popular people so more people see your work and they think they will become popular too?
What are your thoughts about that?

Hi Raphael, 

You are right, this is an interesting topic and you have made some interesting observations.

I am a full-time photographer and make my living from photography.  To make a living I don't think that you have to do the things you suggest.  I certainly don't kiss anyone's ass and have never bought  social media followers (indeed I don't make much use of social media.) I can't even remember when I last posted on Instagram, when I did it was probably a phone snapshot of my local area when I was out walking my dogs.

What is really needed to become a full-time photographer is a lot of hard work, networking, advertising, and chasing down leads.  To be fair, I also invested in myself.  I completed a few photography courses at my then local university and went on to study full-time for a Master's Degree in commercial photography.  I joined the Royal Photographic Society as my Master's degree entitled me to be an associate of the RPS.  

One huge benefit of my studies was that they gave me access to successful commercial photographers, publishers, gallery curators, mentors, and photographer's agents.  These people have been very generous with their time, advice, and assistance.  I also spent some time as an assisting photographer with some high-profile photographers.  

PP is a place to have fun, it is not a place for photographers to find clients.  My most recent commercial job was with an international food company, they wanted industrial photographs of an updated processing facility and of staff working there, unsurprisingly they didn't find me through Purpleport.  

The point I am trying to make is that you need to identify your market and then ensure that people in that market know that you exist and what you can provide at a price they are willing to pay.  It really is that simple, but many of those who want to make a living with their camera seem not to understand the market, even when it is pointed out to them time and time again.

Excellent summary of how to get paid in photography Alan, you are spot on, my last commercial shoot would confuse the heck out of PP members if I posted it here - lovely pictures of photogenic people are great but it's not where the industry is most active. Unless of course you are paying models to wear clothing or represent some other aspect of your client's business. And that's a key word. Business. I regard myself, apologies if this sounds lofty, as a technical businessman.  I find the market I believe needs me and make myself visible to them as any business person would, I just happen to then deliver the service they need with a camera. And it doesn't have to be a commercial concern, I do a lot of private work for Joe and Joanna public too. But getting any bookings is hard work. I'd rather be on a job now than typing this !   

Although luck can play a part, you can find your brand goes stratospheric due to a moment of magic. The following is how I remember a story being told to me, it may not be accurate ! I sold some lights to a long standing industry pro and he explained how he got to where he is. And that 'is' was traveling the world shooting heads of state and the super rich. He'd been assisting as a young man in a top London studio in the 60s /70s and had progressed to doing portraits when the main photographer / owner was on lunch etc.... One day a customer turns up, heard wonderful things about the studio and any chance of a few snaps now. Sure the young chap says. A week later the customer comes to collect his prints. Impressed by the studio assistants images, friendly demeanor and professionalism and critically believing he was the name above the door he revealed what the images were for. They were a test. He needed to find a trustworthy photographer to shoot his employer and could you come to their home next week for a session with them. Here's the address..........

A week later he's at Buckingham Palace, still winging it but from that shoot onward he had a Royal Seal to put on his business cards and now website. And that, and his undoubted talent, has given him a career I can only dream of.

Plus from the outset he'd learnt about light and how to treat customers, by assisting an established pro. He told me this story, or a less romantic version of it, in my house when he bought my strobes and I am absolutely convinced it is true !

There's so much disregard for art. It takes time, patience and effort to get on the right road. Rarely does it ever fall into your lap.

Whatever your art is, invest in yourself before expecting other people to invest in you. Like Alan has suggested, do courses. Join photography clubs, go to events, pay model expenses or rates if you want more experienced models.

There's Art, and art, and there's business.

Rembrandt learned to draw, paint, etc, got some business painting portraits, a big thing in Amsterdam those days, and set up a larger business with an oversupply of props for rather formulaic* portraits and subordinate painters.  Over-reached, cut back etc.

Now he is dead, he is recognised as a great artist and the Rijksmuseum is well-worth a walk around for that never mind the rest.

But here and now, many of us having done business elsewhere wish to do some form or appearance of Art, and a few want to make a living at business, and Art is not usually going to be the angle. 

80% of many things is business, 20% is the craft/art.

* it is a formula I like a lot, and sometimes try to do something modern in the same line - iconic or personal objects included to represent how the person became rich, famous, powerful or whatever.  Money from travel - a globe; from trade - something from the ends of the Earth, or a heap or bag of something; a military person - a sword, gun or plasma rifle in the 40kW range, you know the drill.

Edited by MidgePhoto

Zella Whitfield This explains even more.

If you want to make big bucks, do what these guys do..

*I've not fact checked this, so can't comment on the validity*