Travel costs a discussion

Sensual Art said

Alice18 said

Allesandro B The HMRC recommendation is 45p a mile so she is completely in the right. I personally charge 20p a mile.

It's not their "recommendation".  Rather, it's the maximum you can claim tax-free.  (Further small print also applies)

Indeed, I can think of a few cars where the depreciation alone is more than that. It’s HMRC’s best guess at what is fair versus an attempt to avoid paying tax. If I’ve understood my accountant correctly, the average employee could be paid 90p per mile and the first 10k they would pay 5p/mile in income tax.

Never the less, if you use the income tax allowance and the minimum wage as guidance, 45p/mile is on the low side.

Sensual Art Not at all. It's correct it's the most they can claim tax free, but it is still their recommended rate - it is referred to as the advisory rate and is based off measurable statistics as the website states.

Allesandro B said

Carlos said

Allesandro B said

Owen Lloyd said

Allesandro B said

Owen Lloyd said

These are the Inland Revenue travel allowances used by employers in the UK:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rates-and-allowances-travel-mileage-and-fuel-allowances/travel-mileage-and-fuel-rates-and-allowances

It's £0.45 per mile in a car,  for up to 10,000 miles per year.  It's the same regardless of the size of your car or engine:  it's your choice if you drive a car that uses a lot of fuel per mile, and tbh, the cost per mile in a car isn't just about fuel.   A 50-mile round trip is therefore £22.50

That's not the cost it's what HMRC allow as a deduction. If as a photographer someone wants to contribute to the full running costs of a model's car (who is highly likely to be part time and modelling as a side hustle and not declaring the income) that's their choice, however if someone quotes me 45p a mile that's the end of the conversation.

Yes, it's an allowance - sorry if that wasn't clear Allesandro - I confused the message talking about costs. My point is it's independent of the actual costs of running a car and I think it's a reasonable amount for travel expenses.  However, I do tend to just do what Orson Carter and Carlos do and ask for an all-in cost for the day.

I do a similar thing, the total is the most important amount, although I ask for a split between rate and travel.

I’m curious…..why would you want a split.  A cost is a cost, isn’t it?  If you buy kit, delivery is part of the cost.  If you buy a property legal and other fees are part of the cost.  

It's probably an extension of my professional life. I like to know the detail. But also if a model is relying on public transport it might be easier and more cost effective and viable for me to travel to the model. There are models that are a 30 min drive away from me but a 2 hour train ride because they have to go in and out of London. The consequence of that is not only that their travel cost will be way more but they will want to shoot for longer to justify the travel time.

Ah.  Ok.  Makes perfect sense. 😁

The Ghost said

Sensual Art said

Alice18 said

Allesandro B The HMRC recommendation is 45p a mile so she is completely in the right. I personally charge 20p a mile.

It's not their "recommendation".  Rather, it's the maximum you can claim tax-free.  (Further small print also applies)

Indeed, I can think of a few cars where the depreciation alone is more than that. It’s HMRC’s best guess at what is fair versus an attempt to avoid paying tax. If I’ve understood my accountant correctly, the average employee could be paid 90p per mile and the first 10k they would pay 5p/mile in income tax.

Never the less, if you use the income tax allowance and the minimum wage as guidance, 45p/mile is on the low side.

The OP said they were asked to pay towards fuel.  Not time, or other car costs. 

There is a cost per extra mile driven (which also includes servicing, tyres, depreciation and other things which are distance dependent). And an amount of "profit" which HMRC allows, so that someone can make back some of the fixed costs of having the car (Tax, insurance etc). 45p per mile for the first 10,000 is just the calculation mechanism. Your employer can pay you (e.g) £10,000 towards the cost of your car and travel, but if you do 1000 miles HMRC will say that's £450 'expenses' and £9550 taxable income.  If your employer only pays you 20p per mile, and you do 10000 miles you can tell the HMRC that the first 2500 of your salary is actually reimbursed expenses and claim back the income tax - but not NI (long, long ago I did do that, and I'm fairly sure the rules haven't changed).  

What a client is billed for someone to get to site to do the job varies depending who is doing the billing. I've worked in places where clients were billed £1 per mile to cover time and expenses that would be re-imbursed (so clients were billed different amounts based on location), and others where there was fixed day rate which covered all travel costs (so local clients subsidized different ones). 

It seems quite fair to me that if travel stops a model fitting in another booking, she should try to bill for that travelling. If I book model to work from 10 to 12, and she needs to drive an hour afterwards, that's half a day blocked out but only 2 billable hours. Saying "I'm billing you £150, to get there and do the job" sounds like a very pricey £75 per hour. Presented as £40ph to model and £70 travel sugars the pill a bit. My quibble would be the £70 charge, it's saying "I'm billing you £x plus petrol" and then saying "Petrol is £1.40 per mile". 

Alice18 said

Allesandro B The HMRC recommendation is 45p a mile so she is completely in the right. I personally charge 20p a mile.

Edited by Alice18

No you can charge whatever you like there is no right or wrong amount, it's all income as far as HMRC are considered. The rates you are quoting are for allowable expenses. They are not recommending to anyone what is reasonable to charge.

If a model wants to quote £1.50 a mile they can. If a model wants to charge double the price of a train ticket they can. Whether that's something a photographer is willing to accept is up to them. 

Alice18 said

Sensual Art Not at all. It's correct it's the most they can claim tax free, but it is still their recommended rate - it is referred to as the advisory rate and is based off measurable statistics as the website states.

Yes, it's called the Advisory Fuel Rate.  There's also an Advisory Electric Rate for EVs.

No, it's still not a "recommended" rate.  Neither in legal parlance nor in lay usage does the word advisory mean the same as recommended.

Sensual Art said

Alice18 said

Sensual Art Not at all. It's correct it's the most they can claim tax free, but it is still their recommended rate - it is referred to as the advisory rate and is based off measurable statistics as the website states.

Yes, it's called the Advisory Fuel Rate.  There's also an Advisory Electric Rate for EVs.

No, it's still not a "recommended" rate.  Neither in legal parlance nor in lay usage does the word advisory mean the same as recommended.

The AFR and the mileage allowance are neither the same nor equal, if that makes any sense. The AFR applies to company cars rather than private cars for a start. It also seems to be entirely legal, if not particularly tax efficient, to have your fuel paid for by the company (and pay a 1A NIC on that benefit) AND claim your mileage allowance for wear & tear, depreciation etc.

If you want to get really anal, HMRC allows you to write off 25%* of the purchase cost of a vehicle every year for four years as a loss, so a model driving a £40k car could justifiably say that because they average 10,000 miles a year, their depreciation is £1/mile. Which is nonsense.

At the end of the day, it is what two parties can agree that really matters and 45p/mile seems like a sensible figure, even though you can spin the true cost all sorts of HMRC approved ways.

*apparently it's 100% in the first year for electric cars, in which case a £200k Taycan Turbo GT seems like a sensible company car (2% BIK rate) for some :-D

I would offer to pay at the HMRC rate, which as it stands is 45p per mile.

£70 for 50 miles is highly egregious.  Possibly a "f**k off" charge?

JamesMt142 said

I would offer to pay at the HMRC rate, which as it stands is 45p per mile.

£70 for 50 miles is highly egregious.  Possibly a "f**k off" charge?

And full circle back on the Original Post, I agree with you.

I always pay; "Agreed Travel Costs" for Train this is the cost of a return ticket on a Rail Card

For Fuel I use the calc & wording below...

"My fuel rate for taxable income is £0.32p per mile with the first 20 miles not charged.

e.g. You’re 65 miles away; so £35.30, which I'll PayPay you the day before."

I have an excel sheet to work this out with milage taken from Google Maps

8 pages of discussion so this is clearly something photographers have a “pain point” view on. But doing a quick model search for a local model today for a local shoot in the planning, I saw one wanted travel ……… and subsistence, which is a new one on me! 

Also, no mention of a travel cost calculation formula (that I hoped models would have adopted as a result of this post). And no costing what so ever for subsistence, nor for what it involves.

I guess it’s because no models read the forums and from what I can see, not many read the guidance notes PP publish either. 

It’s sad really, because the number of active local models (within 1 month) is already lower these days, so having to rule one out on a technicality like this just means the number of models to work with is an ever decreasing circle. 

There’s a lot of discussion here about the details. However, the bottom line remains the apparent unfairness and unaffordable nature of the charge. 

It reminds me of my old maths teacher labouring over the “law of diminishing returns”. For our purposes that’s the point at which the seller has loaded the price with so many costs and insurances, that the product becomes unattractive. Sales diminish and he earns less – but raising the price still further only makes matters worse. Eventually, he goes bust. 

This same “rule” could be applied not only to models travel costs, but also their cancellation charges – which are almost never reciprocated (though I don’t particularly want to re-open that “argument” in any detail here). 

I’m a hobbyist, so the bottom-line cost (which includes my time, travel, and studio fees), plus the risk of a DNS is critical. I look hard at  terms and conditions as well as fees – and that “ever-decreasing circle” of models I would love to approach, but won’t take the risk on, is sadly becoming wider by the day.

The Butterfly Collector With regards to travel expenses, do you feel models should not charge them?

Just an open discussion and very interested in all perspectives.

As a model, I have to charge for travel otherwise I'd be losing hundreds of pounds, thousands across a year purely on petrol. When you drive specifically to an area for a photographer it really adds up. I don't charge the 0.45p that the standard rate often is but rather I input the details for a Vauxhall Corsa and the recommended rate was 0.2p per mile.

Cancellation fee I think is a really hard one on both parties. As a model, if I lose a shoot because of a short notice cancellation, I cannot make my bills. But I absolutely hate the idea of having to charge someone who was unwell and couldn't help it. If I had to cancel on a photographer last minute also, I'd absolutely hate them losing potential money on a studio but I also wouldn't be able to financially compensate them so it's a really difficult topic to navigate.

Alyssa Taylor said

The Butterfly Collector With regards to travel expenses, do you feel models should not charge them?

Just an open discussion and very interested in all perspectives.

As a model, I have to charge for travel otherwise I'd be losing hundreds of pounds, thousands across a year purely on petrol. When you drive specifically to an area for a photographer it really adds up. I don't charge the 0.45p that the standard rate often is but rather I input the details for a Vauxhall Corsa and the recommended rate was 0.2p per mile.

Cancellation fee I think is a really hard one on both parties. As a model, if I lose a shoot because of a short notice cancellation, I cannot make my bills. But I absolutely hate the idea of having to charge someone who was unwell and couldn't help it. If I had to cancel on a photographer last minute also, I'd absolutely hate them losing potential money on a studio but I also wouldn't be able to financially compensate them so it's a really difficult topic to navigate.

Alyssa, please... I never suggested models should not charge for travel. I simply noted the pitfalls of raising a charge (any charge) beyond that which the target buyer can afford (or is prepared to pay).

I think you misunderstood me :) I'm asking if that's what you meant and then clarified I mean if on an open discussion to understand other perspectives, then shared the experience on my side. There's nothing hostile or accusatory, just trying to understand so the way I run my rates is fair for all parties and I understand your perspective :) please don't misunderstand me

The Butterfly Collector