To Pay or Not to Pay, that is the question

Huw said

The Portrait Cowboy said

...For what it's worth, I think that higher levels of photography, such as topless, artistic nude or above, should never be offered TF, regardless of a models potential (in-)experience...

So people should pay for sex?

Can't see any other difference.

;)

You get married if you want to do that. ;) 

indemnity They do say the average cost of sex is up to £20,775 now, despite the cost of living crisis!

Huw said

Nobody cares how much a photographer spends on gear. Its the pictures that count.

One of the best photographers on here - with 600 shoots and 600 FPIs - uses a Canon 450D, kit zoom lens, and a 50/1.8 lens. Models queue up to shoot TF with him.

Like it or not, FPIs count on PP. Achieving an FPI per shoot increases the chance models will shoot TF with one.

Edited by Huw

1) True.

Nobody cares how much you spent on your gear (although it is interesting how many DO spend a lot, not on some aspects of their gear, but seemingly on anything and everything... and still pump out shit/clichéd/bland or 'always' the same / 'preaching to the choir' signature look ... to the degree that it's almost as though they work in quality control where microns differences are not acceptable.

2) Define 'best' ? ... and PLEASE, not by your shockingly (teenager) naive optics and measuring sticks of:

i) FPI numbers 'awarded'

ii) The sheer number of shoots they have references for on Purpleport

(as if that makes people that don't strive to 'play the same game', inversely 'idiots with cameras' - IWCs ?) 😉

People queue up to have connections and affiliation with people like Elon Musk and make out he's some sort of fucking genius, overlooking or not realising just how much 'spin over substance' he (and a tsunami of similar celebs and media types and 'influencers') have.

If Elon Musk was a photographer on Purpleport ... he'd have 10,000+ FPIs. All his 'rosy by shoot association' positive reference givers, would give the impression that his cyberphotography was simply awesome. That in turn would, like moths to a bright light, make lots of others want to shoot with him. That and getting more 'Pies' 😀

Although the photographer that you are elluding to is no doubt a very wholesome and upright longstanding member of this community ... taking away what equipment he uses or doesn't use,  would your 'amounts of FPI and positive references / amounts of shoots metrics' be justified in being quoted (for numbers sake), in the defence of so many dodgy characters that have historically 'had their day' on sites including this one??

-

Huw I don't disagree with much / most of what you usually say on these forums. However, I find both shocking and disappointing the laziness of assimilating quantity and frequency of output ...

...  with a log of how many 'nice' references someone has & getting 'paid' with stickers/badges/laminated certificates (or cups at camera clubs!!) - does NOT equal automatic 'greatness' status.

It may equal 'popular' or 'followed' well, for whatever reasons.

It also doesn't negate that the model or photographer that has trawled so many numbers, may actually be really good / consistent / polished at what they indulge in either.

-

Back to the OP:

I have much sympathy with his observations. However, the reality of this place (linked with how the saturation of digitally captured and increasingly AI created 'perfect/flawless' imagery has reached saturation point) - means that myself and many others just don't share the vibe that we had some 15 or so years ago. It's no longer an emerging online space that is a bit geeky / hidden or where most can feel a bit special, for even a little teeny while. Too many people also playing. WAY too many always asking what they are getting out of it? in advance vs simply arranging a shoot and (to some extent) taking a risk.

For me: Taking a calculated risk to collab with someone (and both working hard  to get results that are good/great on the day) = FUN and EXCITING.

I'll go further than that: If things on the day (weather, location aspects etc) have to change, and I then have to think (more) quickly on my feet in a sort of MacGyver meets A-Team and Bear Grylls way - I'll be in my fucking element! Increasingly I know where my neuro-divergent / ADHD and Aspergers spectrum traits will be utilised brilliantly ... and situtaions where I would rather chew off my own feet, than get involved.

(vs) Doing the same (or one party paying the other) to achieve the most precisely pre-scripted and 'known output' via 'tried and tested formula'. DULL and Why precisely?

'Follower' creepy and (often) one party paying to create or further establish a brand identity for one or both parties. This would, for me, feel like 'working' vs 'playing' and enjoyment.

I don't know all the answers as to why it was so easy to arrange so frequently and effortlessly so many 'TF' collaborations 'back then' - but now things feel either too 'forced' / ping-pong comms hard work ... OR you absolutey know that such a dynamic can only be fixed by throwing ££ at the third party instead :( A very different dynamic. One that (rightly or wrongly) I swore not to get sucked into, many many years back. YMMV

Aardvark🎯VonEssfolk   

"One of the best photographers on here - with 600 shoots and 600 FPIs "

I think "Best on PP" is very easily measured by number of positive references and number of FPIs.
Certainly in a thread which should have been titled  "why won't anybody shoot TF with me?".

The availability of chocolate biscuits would be another measure of the best photographers on PP as well   ;)

Might be different if we were talking about the real world, but we're not.

Aardvark🎯VonEssfolk

Oh yes: "why it was so easy to arrange so frequently and effortlessly so many 'TF' collaborations 'back then' "

Answer... Photography used to require skill. Not any more. A decent phone does most of the work.

Huw said

Aardvark🎯VonEssfolk   

"One of the best photographers on here - with 600 shoots and 600 FPIs "

I think "Best on PP" is very easily measured by number of positive references and number of FPIs.
Certainly in a thread which should have been titled  "why won't anybody shoot TF with me?".

The availability of chocolate biscuits would be another measure of the best photographers on PP as well   ;)

Might be different if we were talking about the real world, but we're not.

As long as adults (some many many decade old adults) don't mix up Purpleport 'with the real world' ... then I hope we'll agree 👍 🙏

The Portrait Cowboy said

For what it's worth, I think that higher levels of photography, such as topless, artistic nude or above, should never be offered TF, regardless of a models potential (in-)experience. What inevitably happens is shit photographers will expect to shoot models in a varying state of undress and produce awful results that look crap on everyone's portfolio. So in fact there are some styles of shooting that really ought to be paid no matter how much experience a model has.

So it's OK to take shit photos of models with clothes on but not if they are naked or semi-naked? Your logic defeats me.

There's still loads of models out there still who want to shoot TF - but you find them mainly on instagram these days, not PP. There's probably even more on TikTok but I'm getting old and have drawn the line at even trying to understand that nonsense. 

Huw said

Aardvark🎯VonEssfolk

Oh yes: "why it was so easy to arrange so frequently and effortlessly so many 'TF' collaborations 'back then' "

Answer... Photography used to require skill. Not any more. A decent phone does most of the work.

:( I know - I think this is so soul destroying - even if the slide to it being ever more the case, year on year, means the genie is so TOTALLY out of the bottle now!

What makes me chuckle (in a way) is how depressed many must surely feel at having got to the stage where their post-processed creations (even as recently as 5 to 10 years back) ... where for many, seen as 'clever' or at least 'laboured over' images. Now The same sort of images, should they post them up on all sorts of social media platforms, will be looked upon (especially by sad, ever more cyncial and jaded folk like myself), in a sort of:

"Oh wow that looks ... erm hang on, is it or isn’t it?" (just an AI prompt image)

In fact ... ironically: The more 'tinkered with' and the more plastic skin, smoke in background, fab backdrop, sun flares and 'all sorts' that makes up the imagery - the more I'll likely twist myself bewteen:

(a) Is most of it (or as much as possible) originated from a clever one capture shot

b) Whether (a) has been ruled out or not - Are they skilled and decades long experienced in taking something in 'reality' to a more polished and escapist 'better reality', in a muliti layered, multiple process way ...

c) Or have they just pushed every button and tweaked every fucking slider and software add on possible 

(and now, God help me)

d) ALSO gor AI involved hevily involved too! 😉

??

Edited by Aardvark🎯VonEssfolk

.

Edited by R6 Photography Studio

"yet models often see those togs seeking to collab as cheapskates and timewasters and would rather get no work than compromise and collab"

It is not a compromise to collaborate, when this is your job. As a model, by 'compromising' I would lose income by not being available for paid work on this date and lose income on my share of studio costs and travel. Although I absolutely love my job, I get so much enjoyment out of it and it is my passion - it is still my career and no one would go to their supermarket job for free as it's a compromise. You never know, they may get as grocery discount 😉

Your post just feels a little demeaning towards those who do it full time, and don't have the interest or capacity for TFP work.

HOWEVER, this doesn't take away from the value of TFP work for those trying to build a career. Building a portfolio and working TFP to do so is a great way to meet creatives and build a set of images in the same way with like minded individuals.

I also believe it can be great as a full time model, to strength things, work on specific creative projects and we do have some amazing talent on this site I would be honoured to work TFP with.

Huw said

Aardvark🎯VonEssfolk

Oh yes: "why it was so easy to arrange so frequently and effortlessly so many 'TF' collaborations 'back then' "

Answer... Photography used to require skill. Not any more. A decent phone does most of the work.

Furthemore ... In addition to my last reply, things like even investing in & shooting with a very very fast (wide) apeture lens fully open (for the beautiful bokeh effect) = increasingly something that software prior to latest AI stuff ... and massively so with it now - (literally) blurs the line bewteen BOTH:

a) Clever / lucky 99% SOOC captures with the right use of gear and lighting set up

all the way through to:

z) Not very clever in camera capture (but with lots of time effort & sometimes heaps of skill to at post-processing stages)

Huw said

Aardvark🎯VonEssfolk

Oh yes: "why it was so easy to arrange so frequently and effortlessly so many 'TF' collaborations 'back then' "

Answer... Photography used to require skill. Not any more. A decent phone does most of the work.

Huw said

Aardvark🎯VonEssfolk   

"One of the best photographers on here - with 600 shoots and 600 FPIs "

I think "Best on PP" is very easily measured by number of positive references and number of FPIs.
Certainly in a thread which should have been titled  "why won't anybody shoot TF with me?".

The availability of chocolate biscuits would be another measure of the best photographers on PP as well   ;)

Might be different if we were talking about the real world, but we're not.

I thought FPIs were the advertising for PP? Ive seen literally hundreds of shots on PP that in my opinion are worthy of an FPI and others where its more "nah" yet were awarded them. Being in the industry for most of my working life (mainly film, TV & commercials but also stills commercial) Ive seen crap work from professionals that were 'flavour of the month" and outstanding work from others that were in the industry for decades. However I think "good" photography regardless of whether using a cell phone or a large format camera requires the same compositional skills, basics like the rule of thirds, some measure of understanding lighting to produce consistent shots and some artistic merit. 

I think the poster has a couple of "valid" points (although TFP is not the main point of models on PP they are here to make money) there are a minority of unskilled, new models who think they are worthy of rates charged by experienced models and the number of no-shows Ive experienced this year underlines the lack of professionalism again of a minority who waste your time which is highly frustrating. 

Lenswonder said

I think a lot of people like me are confused about the point of the thread. Perhaps it's just a rant.

Perhaps it just is?

-

I must at this point commend the OP TheEgg

You have easliy passed my 'view at tumbnail level only' test ! 👍 

i.e. Your output is colourful (and B&W!) and DIVERSE enough for me, should I want to, open up individual images.

Your photographic and lighting skills are visible in enough images (even at that zoomed out level).

Increasingly THAT = My 'worth' or value badge over any FPI, how many shoots they have done (recently or years ago), how many references they have(n't) ... even before I even open up individual images, maybe 'Follow', 'Love' or add to any list or collection.

In fact I should do this even more: ... AND also go back weeks/months/years later (after 'folllowing them') - to see if their once fresh, diverse and largely ego-free and 'by association with' non-reliance still remains*

(or) * Has instead their portfolio window now changed into a lot of very samey images that now (only) defines them beacuse of rinse and repeat. (Even if brilliant and technically polished and a bit better over the years, with content clevernes and/or garnishing with all sorts of headress or flora and fauna eveywhere / inaccessible or elite location) ??

Often with the latter, eventually, it is time to 'unfollow'** and go and seek fresher and less 'followed' or FPI wank-fest profiles that have somehow remained hidden ?

** Else it is easy to get sucked into a sort of mutual circle of giving out loves and staying within a safe echo-chamber. Much like most of social media these days in fact ... Oh where btw, it is also WAY to easy to semi interact online - yet never meet up IRL :( 

THIS is what was so different with social media website spaces (most of which now long dead) in the very late 90s and early to mid+ 00s. People (on all sorts of diferent sites, not just model photographer ones) DID physically 'IRL' interact too! 

I think maybe because you've achieved paid assignments in the past,you've approached the network with the expectation that models will throw themselves at you for TF work....

Maybe just like category 2, you define yourself as special.. in a very similar manner....and as you mentioned, have invested in equipment to do so.

Category "1" models (in your definition) appreciate and understand the importance of a good portfolio.. therfore will seek and reap the benefits of outstanding images from TF work...

Investing in good equipment is only half the journey. An investment shooting good models will:

-get your images showcased by a broader audience

- get you better images

-get you more TF work.

New " pretty" unexperienced models also have a lot of value. Despite their inexperience, they are still a new face in the network. So are sometimes as equally in demand.

Kind regards

Ashley

Edited by AshleyAshton