We should be helping each other, not hurting each other

♥ Chiara Elisabetta said

Bahahahaha, you were just jealous of my fuzzy no. 2 petting zoo..

That sounds very wrong! :D

Orson Carter said

♥ Chiara Elisabetta said

RHM.Photo said

 
....Bahahahaha, you were just jealous of my fuzzy no. 2 petting zoo...

Please tell me that's not a euphemism...

See? :o

You're talking about helping each other...

I completely agree that, if good agreements are made, you help each other by working together. And then the purse strings can remain closed.
For example, I am regularly open to models who are new and want to work on their portfolio. Sometimes with added value for my own portfolio, then collaborations will certainly follow. Sometimes it is disappointing and then you have lost some time but nothing more. Unfortunately, I have also experienced this a few times with a model who claimed to be experienced, then you are more careful the next time. I heard from a model with whom I regularly work together that she got 5 assignments from our previous TF shoot. I think we helped each other then.
Don't get me wrong, if you can work with a model that fits within a concept and who you know is going to be good, then there may be a fee attached to it. However, I think there are too few models who realize that occasionally doing a selective TF shoot can advance their career.
But what has been appearing in my inbox lately only makes me conclude that a new generation of girls have found their way to make money as fast as possible and only see photographers as a cash machine. They clearly haven't looked at your portfolio or read your Bio and you get a standard message with the most insane proposals. You sometimes get the same message on multiple platforms.
The latter makes me as a photographer much more selective in who I work with.

Models, make-up artists and stylists who want to collaborate on fashion projects and are open to working together on our portfolios are always welcome.

♥ Chiara Elisabetta said

But is the disconnect really between models and photographers, or between differing personalities? 

The latter.

gjp said

I think the power dynamic on PP has changed slightly and some of the arguments etc. on the forums are in response to this.

It used to be all the power sat with the photographers, but with the event of only fans/patreon (creating different options for income for models); more models who are photographers (leading to collabs between model friends); and the awesome (if too expensive for some) events that are now organised; models are in a position to be pickier about who they shoot TF with, and even who they shoot with full stop.

I see discussions about how we need to go back to the ‘good old days’ and when people don’t agree arguments ensue

The world has changed, and change is often uncomfortable, and for me forum discussions often reflect this

It sounds a bit snobbish coming from a model, but this is absolutely spot on, and kinda what I touched on earlier in this thread. But you articulated & summarised it perfectly.

I think most models recognise this and instead of trying to explain or justify it, they generally avoid continuous forum discussion and get on with progressing in any way they can in rapidly changing times.  

Raf Van den Bogaert

"But what has been appearing in my inbox lately only makes me conclude that a new generation of girls have found their way to make money as fast as possible and only see photographers as a cash machine. They clearly haven't looked at your portfolio or read your Bio and you get a standard message with the most insane proposals."

I find mentioning this too much only gets you pushback.

Afrofilmviewer said

Raf Van den Bogaert

"But what has been appearing in my inbox lately only makes me conclude that a new generation of girls have found their way to make money as fast as possible and only see photographers as a cash machine. They clearly haven't looked at your portfolio or read your Bio and you get a standard message with the most insane proposals."

I find mentioning this too much only gets you pushback.

Whilst it does, what Raf says is not entirely untrue.

Raf Van den Bogaert said

But what has been appearing in my inbox lately only makes me conclude that a new generation of girls have found their way to make money as fast as possible and only see photographers as a cash machine. They clearly haven't looked at your portfolio or read your Bio and you get a standard message with the most insane proposals. You sometimes get the same message on multiple platforms.

Yes, happens a lot.

But face it: While some here are genuine hobbyists, others are here for the money.
Sure, there is some overlap in these opposite camps.

The camp which is in it for the money uses mass mailings, on all available platforms.
They have a clear message what they are offering, and they couldn't care less what
the recipients of their message uttered before.

Their goal is to reach as many people as possible, because the percentage of people
who like what they have to offer is pretty constant. So, the more people they reach,
the higher the rate of conversions into revenue.

Every day somebody stupid gets up and needs to be separated from his money.
You need a lot of insane proposals to be read to find that stupid somebody.

Just don't take that personally. It's a simple business strategy.

Michael_990 said

Raf Van den Bogaert said

But what has been appearing in my inbox lately only makes me conclude that a new generation of girls have found their way to make money as fast as possible and only see photographers as a cash machine. They clearly haven't looked at your portfolio or read your Bio and you get a standard message with the most insane proposals. You sometimes get the same message on multiple platforms.

Yes, happens a lot.

But face it: While some here are genuine hobbyists, others are here for the money.
Sure, there is some overlap in these opposite camps.

The camp which is in it for the money uses mass mailings, on all available platforms.
They have a clear message what they are offering, and they couldn't care less what
the recipients of their message uttered before.

Their goal is to reach as many people as possible, because the percentage of people
who like what they have to offer is pretty constant. So, the more people they reach,
the higher the rate of conversions into revenue.

Every day somebody stupid gets up and needs to be separated from his money.
You need a lot of insane proposals to be read to find that stupid somebody.

Just don't take that personally. It's a simple business strategy.

Two camps: hobbyists and money grabbing tricksters. Got it 👍 

Are you ok? Do you need to sit down? 

Afrofilmviewer

Quote from:

Michael_990

"When you consider yourselves perfect and receive every critique

not as a chance but solely as aggression, you are doomed to fail."

This is directed towards myself, in addition to his initial comment here, where he offered to critique my portfolio and my modelling. He then proceeded to block me, but still chooses to come here and keep directing the discussion towards critique. It's interesting to watch him, keep saying the same thing.

♥ Chiara Elisabetta said

Two camps: hobbyists and money grabbing tricksters. Got it 👍 

Being in it for business and money isn't equal to being a trickster.

After all, they always are very clear in what they offer and what they want in return.

They just don't bother to read what their addressee says he/she is looking for.

Afrofilmviewer said

♥ Chiara Elisabetta probably a bit of both. But either way it's enough to ensure that a more collaborative environment won't really be achieved.

But at least it tells you who not to collaborate with?

JPea said

I keep repeating myself.

I must live on a different planet to everyone else.

None of this stuff is part of what I experience .

Don't worry, you're not alone.  I don't seem to have any trouble finding wonderful models to collaborate with.

Orson Carter said

♥ Chiara Elisabetta said

RHM.Photo said

 
....Bahahahaha, you were just jealous of my fuzzy no. 2 petting zoo...

Please tell me that's not a euphemism...

Please tell me that it is a euphemism 

;)

Michael_990 said

♥ Chiara Elisabetta said

Two camps: hobbyists and money grabbing tricksters. Got it 👍 

Being in it for business and money isn't equal to being a trickster.

After all, they always are very clear in what they offer and what they want in return.

They just don't bother to read what their addressee says he/she is looking for.

Then I think your comment unfortunately got lost in translation because it sounded incredibly like a backhanded compliment - describing models as 'business savvy' to cold-call with high rates & without personalised messaging, then imply that photographers who pay models are 'stupid' and have fallen for some kind of trick - you used the words 'every day somebody stupid gets up and needs to be separated from his money,' rather than considering it's their conscious adult decision to do so - how insulting to photographers who pay models for their modelling services.

Is that the same for stupid people who pick up any stupid pointless hobby from advertising who are stupid enough to part with their money to indulge in that thing they stupidly enjoy?

I prefer not to cold-call message, at least without some sort of prior indication of interest (loves on their work / a follow or being added to a list, etc.) and personalised messaging is important, but each to their own. It sounded like you were saying hobbyist models are fine, and paid models are to be avoided. I'm sorry if you've personally had bad experiences - I know there are plenty of models who are engaging, present, they are considered, they read notes, they do a lot of research before they reply, etc. They charge varying rates which reflect their experience & attitude to their job - as they should. I'm sure it can be really frustrating when you engage with someone who isn't quite as mindful, but do try look at the bigger picture because this attitude is insufferable.