We should be helping each other, not hurting each other
Orson Carter said, 1730547098
♥ Chiara Elisabetta said
RHM.Photo said
....Bahahahaha, you were just jealous of my fuzzy no. 2 petting zoo...
Please tell me that's not a euphemism...
JPea said, 1730549441
MaristarOxley said
I have been a member of PP for some years and was an active member on MM for longer.
I'll be honest, I did prefer MM back in the day, because I did so many great shoots, fashion shows, commercials etc from the platform. However it changed for the worst and I came here.
PP fared well as soon as I can on and I did some great things. But not long afterwards, the style of photography gravitated towards nude work or implied, or fantasy. That's fine, but it soon left me not finding photographers doing a more commercial fashion or editorial style.
That's fine. I got involved in forums to see if I could find contacts. I did at the beginning, but it quickly became bombarded with a lot of negativity, especially for models posting.
I genuinely would love to hear what we as a group could try to do to make collaborations, connections better.
To go back to the original question, for me Groups don't provide me with models to shoot with.
This only happens when I can look at an image that suggests that I might be able to shoot with a model.
Everything else is chatter.
♥ Chiara Elisabetta said, 1730549711
Gothic Image said
RHM.Photo said
1. It depends on your definition of "collaboration" - is that working together generally, whether paid or TF, or do you mean it like others, in terms of there being no payment?
Can we please nail this once and for all? A "collaboration" is where people work together towards a common end. It does not imply any payment in either direction but it doesn't help that PP has conflated it with working TF. If we mean TF can we please say "TF", not "collaboration"? :-)
Totally agree. My thoughts of this have changed over the years, but I'm kinda irritated by the assumption that 'collaboration' means no money involved.. also implying that paid shoots don't require any input from the model. They don't have to of course, but practically all my (paid) shoots these days include a request for my contribution in some way, (often in big ways - I'm flattered)
But a while ago, things seemed to be different - also the word 'testing' was thrown around more, which also implied TF. Now there can be paid 'tests' which makes more sense because if the photographer is testing ideas, how on earth can they guarantee work the model will find valuable?! Terminology is important.
Often when I get a request for a shoot on instagram and the photographer has used the word collaboration, I gravitate towards thinking they're not expecting to pay so I'll politely explain that I'm happy to collaborate with them, as I do on all my paid shoots. It's usually about 50/50 whether that response turns into a paid shoot or not.
Orson Carter said
♥ Chiara Elisabetta said
“In my experience, no one wishes to do highly elaborate creative shoots for TFP.”
Oh they do, but for those models who are not photographers themselves or those who are not in a relationship with a photographer, any photographer seeking TF has to offer something the model really wants for their portfolio; something they couldn’t shoot themselves and be of an exceptional standard because the bar is higher than it’s ever been. Mutual benefit is needed; and that’s also hard to pair fairly..
Models who are photographers and can shoot their own portfolio content might still work TF occasionally with exceptional photographers when the photographer in question has a particular & unique style the model may want in their portfolio (assuming the feeling is mutual)
More than ever, there are photographers who also work as models - mostly women and many who are friends due to crossing paths / mutual interests on duo shoots / events / social parties etc. Two or more models who are already friends & probably both have huge interesting wardrobes will photograph each other TF with their cameras & lighting set-ups, comfortable to experiment for days, stay over, etc. before they cast for TF with a (usually) male photographer they don’t know from a networking site.
I don’t remember any freelance models also doing model photography from around 2005 - 2010-ish, but my network of connections wasn’t so vast then. It deffo seemed to pick up after that, then Covid probably escalated the push into self-portrait work.
I don’t think TF is dead though - this really isn’t supposed to be a pessimistic post for anyone who can’t afford to pay a load of creatives for these fantastical, wild and huge-scale shoots - it just takes a bit more thinking of outside the box, getting really good, (not just the photography but the retouching too) and even more importantly having a unique selling point in style, something which sets the work aside from what everybody else is doing.
It’s the same principle for everyone really.. studios have to step up as models are creating beautiful sets from their homes.. models offering luxury photographic getaways.. bigger.. better.. all the time. I don’t know how it will end, but if you’re going to complete, you have to get creative in more ways than one.
Just to be clear, I’m not referencing anybody’s work or anything specific, just noting it’s incredibly competitive for everybody.
I hope this isn't going off at a tangent...The bit in bold... There are instances when people get together simply because they enjoy working with each other, but such working relationships are built up over a period of time. For one-off shoots or 'first' shoots, I totally agree that a TF arrangement should be beneficial to all parties. It's not about one person giving up their time for someone else's benefit. That's not fair.
A story... Several years ago a model who is very creative, has a shed-load of individuality and a fascinating wardrobe (the sort of model I love working with!), asked me abut a TF shoot. I was chuffed. She then asked me what ideas I could bring to the shoot. My reply was along the lines of 'I'd like to rely mainly on your own creativity'. Her reply was a long the lines of 'If you can't bring any ideas to the shoot I'll be wasting my time'. She was right. She would have been giving up her time mainly for my benefit - and that's hardly fair. I like to think that I learned from that; if I do a TF shoot nowadays I want it to be of benefit to the model. (My benefit? If I thoroughly enjoy the shoot, that's my reward. I just do this for enjoyment.)
Coming back to the gist of this thread - collaborations for fashion shoots ('proper' styles fashion rather than 'woman wearing clothes') - I suspect that a lot of photographers are in a similar position to me - i.e. they'd like to try something like that but (a) they realise that they're not good enough/creative enough to do it on a TF basis and/or (b) they don't have the money to pay for it. (Please note that I include myself in both those categories. Even though I regularly buy mags such as Vogue and even though I'm often impressed by what I see there, I'm realistic enough to know that I don't have the imagination or resources to create shoots like that myself - and I don't have the money to pay someone to create it for me.)
Edited by Orson Carter
Hey! That first line is valid and something I overlooked, which is a bit silly of me considering I am in a long-term relationship with photographers who I live with - and being a photographer myself, we work together to produce the final images of anything when we experiment. Piss-about shoots are great fun, even when they don't work.. or spontaneous stuff which evolves on a day / night out.. the unplanned and unexpected. I know there are plenty of creatives who plan TF shoots with friends because they know each other really well, but on the other hand no-one is obliged to shoot TF with their friends.
I've been photographed naked (legitimate shoots) on restaurant tables, in phone boxes & walking down the street, on dates, on spontaneous picnics, drunken nights out, getting it on the back of a taxi.. to say thank you for something kind someone did.. even once rolled out of bed makeup-less on a Sunday morning because there was some nice sunlight projected onto the wall.. he took 5 shots and I rolled back into bed.. so I suppose I haven't been exempt from this either.
♥ Chiara Elisabetta said, 1730549827
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♥ Chiara Elisabetta said, 1730550029
@Golding said
I bought you a Yorkie yesterday...
A PUPPY?!! ♥ ♥ ♥
Jessica Knight said, 1730550522
For me a shoot is all about collaboration. Bouncing ideas around, looking at lighting, looking at the set and setting and working out what expressions to use working out which costume and how to wear it, finding the back story. For me this is why I do it and then create good art. I absoluteluy love doing this. If i am just a mannikin standing around being told what to do I feel it is not using my skills and maked me wonder why i have a first class degree in drama. Getting costumes ready, cleaned ironed and then cleaned again to put away is time consuming and fills my car. This is what I hope I am being paid for. So for me its all about collaboration so for this site to put that as other than paid really is ignoring all these skills. If you just want a mannikin thats really boring for me uses no skills and tbh I am unlikely to be interested. Its diferent types of modelling and different skills. each paid.
Michael_990 said, 1730550693
JPea said
To go back to the original question, for me Groups don't provide me with models to shoot with.
This only happens when I can look at an image that suggests that I might be able to shoot with a model.
Absolutely to the point.
The question "what would a professional fashion photographer want to see from me"
should be asked more often.
And in every critique there is always also the solution.
Hear a photographer say that he doesn't like this or that, then removing
that or stop doing that might make it click.
When you consider yourselves perfect and receive every critique
not as a chance but solely as aggression, you are doomed to fail.
Most fashion photography is dull catalogue work, where the model is
very often not more than a living coat hanger. The focus is on the details
of the garment, the colors, the seams, the buttons, zippers....
The model is needed in order to make the merchandize understandable.
He/she should not detract from the clothing.
Much more seldom fashion photography strives to convey a lifestyle feeling,
and for that you need a model which isn't necessary the best looking,
youngest, most naked, but does give you the expression you or the
agency creatives envision.
Do you have a variety of expressions on your port? Fine.
If not, add some. You might be surprised.
Afrofilmviewer said, 1730553641
"When you consider yourselves perfect and receive every critique
not as a chance but solely as aggression, you are doomed to fail."
Think it's interesting to see a photographer say this whereas a model says:
"I engage sometimes, but I’d be lying if I didn’t admit feeling anxious & drained over the threat of an innocuous discussion ending in a cycle of never-ending personal trolling."
When I read group posts. I often think there's a disconnect between models and photographers.
♥ Chiara Elisabetta said, 1730554124
Afrofilmviewer said
"When you consider yourselves perfect and receive every critique
not as a chance but solely as aggression, you are doomed to fail."
Think it's interesting to see a photographer say this whereas a model says:
"I engage sometimes, but I’d be lying if I didn’t admit feeling anxious & drained over the threat of an innocuous discussion ending in a cycle of never-ending personal trolling."
When I read group posts. I often think there's a disconnect between models and photographers.
But is the disconnect really between models and photographers, or between differing personalities?
Afrofilmviewer said, 1730555222
♥ Chiara Elisabetta probably a bit of both. But either way it's enough to ensure that a more collaborative environment won't really be achieved.
JPea said, 1730557281
I keep repeating myself.
I must live on a different planet to everyone else.
None of this stuff is part of what I experience .
gjp said, 1730557339
I think the power dynamic on PP has changed slightly and some of the arguments etc. on the forums are in response to this.
It used to be all the power sat with the photographers, but with the event of only fans/patreon (creating different options for income for models); more models who are photographers (leading to collabs between model friends); and the awesome (if too expensive for some) events that are now organised; models are in a position to be pickier about who they shoot TF with, and even who they shoot with full stop.
I see discussions about how we need to go back to the ‘good old days’ and when people don’t agree arguments ensue
The world has changed, and change is often uncomfortable, and for me forum discussions often reflect this