We should be helping each other, not hurting each other

Gerry99111

"You could solve a lot of problems I think by making this site more appealing to use both in terms of function and feel.

A few people hammer the castings and a few people hammer the forums, but that doesn't make them bookable"

Two really good points.

Gerry99111 said

You could solve a lot of problems I think by making this site more appealing to use both in terms of function and feel.

I think that was part of the OP's original question?  All suggestions welcome, I suspect.

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Gothic Image I am referring to almost anything other than forums, which was the thrust of the original thread.

You won't change the forums or make them more appealing as all the tinkering over the years has still resulted in the same type if beast with just a few outright trouble makers removed

MaristarOxley said

I genuinely would love to hear what we as a group could try to do to make collaborations, connections better.

A couple of things:

1. It depends on your definition of "collaboration" - is that working together generally, whether paid or TF, or do you mean it like others, in terms of there being no payment?

2. Connections rely on interaction - there are some people I've become friendly with on PP without meeting them, others I've gone on to meet (and indeed marry...) after initial interaction on PP, and then there are other people I just can't shake off like that bloody ♥ Chiara Elisabetta despite being incredibly rude to her, mocking her cancer diagnosis (she got me back when I died in a crash), and yet she still produces lovely images with me.

ANG cheng said

Pervy photographers wants to see naked women thats why!! Ive applied for numerous of fashion shoots on pp and i too get no responses to shoots! Theyl reply and say im not the right one and thats becos i refuse to take my clothes off!! Show more ul get more shoots!! Whats the world coming to ayyyy 🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈

I think you need to post more often on the forums.

Increase your visibility, let more people know you better.

I’m sure the work will pour in.

;)

♥ Chiara Elisabetta said

Afrofilmviewer

“In my experience, no one wishes to do highly elaborate creative shoots for TFP.”

Oh they do, but for those models who are not photographers themselves or those who are not in a relationship with a photographer, any photographer seeking TF has to offer something the model really wants for their portfolio; something they couldn’t shoot themselves and be of an exceptional standard because the bar is higher than it’s ever been. Mutual benefit is needed; and that’s also hard to pair fairly..

Models who are photographers and can shoot their own portfolio content might still work TF occasionally with exceptional photographers when the photographer in question has a particular & unique style the model may want in their portfolio (assuming the feeling is mutual)

More than ever, there are photographers who also work as models - mostly women and many who are friends due to crossing paths / mutual interests on duo shoots / events / social parties etc. Two or more models who are already friends & probably both have huge interesting wardrobes will photograph each other TF with their cameras & lighting set-ups, comfortable to experiment for days, stay over, etc. before they cast for TF with a (usually) male photographer they don’t know from a networking site.

I don’t remember any freelance models also doing model photography from around 2005 - 2010-ish, but my network of connections wasn’t so vast then. It deffo seemed to pick up after that, then Covid probably escalated the push into self-portrait work.

I don’t think TF is dead though - this really isn’t supposed to be a pessimistic post for anyone who can’t afford to pay a load of creatives for these fantastical, wild and huge-scale shoots - it just takes a bit more thinking of outside the box, getting really good, (not just the photography but the retouching too) and even more importantly having a unique selling point in style, something which sets the work aside from what everybody else is doing.

It’s the same principle for everyone really.. studios have to step up as models are creating beautiful sets from their homes.. models offering luxury photographic getaways.. bigger.. better.. all the time. I don’t know how it will end, but if you’re going to complete, you have to get creative in more ways than one.

Just to be clear, I’m not referencing anybody’s work or anything specific, just noting it’s incredibly competitive for everybody.

I hope this isn't going off at a tangent...

The bit in bold... There are instances when people get together simply because they enjoy working with each other, but such working relationships are built up over a period of time. For one-off shoots or 'first' shoots, I totally agree that a TF arrangement should be beneficial to all parties. It's not about one person giving up their time for someone else's benefit. That's not fair.

A story... Several years ago a model who is very creative, has a shed-load of individuality and a fascinating wardrobe (the sort of model I love working with!), asked me abut a TF shoot. I was chuffed. She then asked me what ideas I could bring to the shoot. My reply was along the lines of 'I'd like to rely mainly on your own creativity'. Her reply was a long the lines of 'If you can't bring any ideas to the shoot I'll be wasting my time'. She was right. She would have been giving up her time mainly for my benefit - and that's hardly fair. I like to think that I learned from that; if I do a TF shoot nowadays I want it to be of benefit to the model. (My benefit? If I thoroughly enjoy the shoot, that's my reward. I just do this for enjoyment.)  

Coming back to the gist of this thread - collaborations for fashion shoots ('proper' styles fashion rather than 'woman wearing clothes') - I suspect that a lot of photographers are in a similar position to me - i.e. they'd like to try something like that but (a) they realise that they're not good enough/creative enough to do it on a TF basis and/or (b) they don't have the money to pay for it. (Please note that I include myself in both those categories. Even though I regularly buy mags such as Vogue and even though I'm often impressed by what I see there, I'm realistic enough to know that I don't have the imagination or resources to create shoots like that myself - and I don't have the money to pay someone to create it for me.)  

Edited by Orson Carter

RHM.Photo said

1. It depends on your definition of "collaboration" - is that working together generally, whether paid or TF, or do you mean it like others, in terms of there being no payment?

Can we please nail this once and for all?  A "collaboration" is where people work together towards a common end. It does not imply any payment in either direction but it doesn't help that PP has conflated it with working TF.  If we mean TF can we please say "TF", not "collaboration"?  :-)

If it's a "collaboration", my understanding is that you share copyright in the final artistic work.

The word is important.

"In the case of works made through a collaboration of two or more ‘authors’, where the contribution of each author is not distinct from that of the other authors, then the work is one of ‘joint authorship’; and all of the authors jointly own the copyright."

https://publicartonline.org.uk/resources/practicaladvice/contracts/jointauthor.php.html#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20works,authors%20jointly%20own%20the%20copyright.

" The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 establishes the co-ownership of copyright, requires the following:

Collaboration – working together as a team, with both parties having a shared plan and creating together.

Sufficient contribution – each party’s contributions must be substantial. Simply critiquing another’s work or providing ad-hoc suggestions is not sufficient if not part of a wider contribution.

Inseparable contributions – Contributions from each party must be indistinguishable from each other, as mentioned previously."

https://www.legalstop.co.uk/blog/joint-ownership-of-copyright-how-does-it-work

"Where two or more people have created a single work protected by copyright and the contribution of each author is not distinct from that of the other(s), those people may be considered joint owners. There are slightly different rules for what are referred to as “co-written works”"

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ownership-of-copyright-works

*********************************

Worth discussing and settling in advance.

♥ Chiara Elisabetta said

...I don’t remember any freelance models also doing model photography from around 2005 - 2010-ish,...

Big financial barrier to entry then, even in the early days of digital.

Fair skill level required then as well.

****************

That's the difference - level playing field now, excellent kit costs £1,000, not the equivalent of ten times as much then.

Huw said

I get a bit irritated by the amount of knocking Purpleport gets.
It does a great job connecting models with the photographers who want to shoot with them.
That's fairly obvious from the irrelevance of the other model sites on the UK market.

The characterisation of "nude models" as talentless bimbos is equally unfair.
Not really "helping each other".

There's a fair number of Oxford or Cambridge first degrees, Masters and a few PhDs among the models on my portfolio.
Plus degrees from other universities in the UK and abroad.
Many with years of ballet and dance experience.
Not to add that nearly all of them are successful small business owners who traveland work internationally.
Generally spending hours per week in the gym maintaining an athlete's level of fitness.

Sums it up for me! Well said!

Huw said

"In the case of works made through a collaboration of two or more ‘authors’, where the contribution of each author is not distinct from that of the other authors, then the work is one of ‘joint authorship’; and all of the authors jointly own the copyright."

https://publicartonline.org.uk/resources/practicaladvice/contracts/jointauthor.php.html#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20works,authors%20jointly%20own%20the%20copyright.

" The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 establishes the co-ownership of copyright, requires the following:

Collaboration – working together as a team, with both parties having a shared plan and creating together.

Sufficient contribution – each party’s contributions must be substantial. Simply critiquing another’s work or providing ad-hoc suggestions is not sufficient if not part of a wider contribution.

Inseparable contributions – Contributions from each party must be indistinguishable from each other, as mentioned previously."

https://www.legalstop.co.uk/blog/joint-ownership-of-copyright-how-does-it-work

"Where two or more people have created a single work protected by copyright and the contribution of each author is not distinct from that of the other(s), those people may be considered joint owners. There are slightly different rules for what are referred to as “co-written works”"

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ownership-of-copyright-works

*********************************

Worth discussing and settling in advance.

I thought this is why models are asked to waiver their rights to their contribution in the photographs?

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