We should be helping each other, not hurting each other

Margo Jost I suspect I receive the same comments from the same ones you have had bad vibes from.

In this thread alone, there's one person who has blocked me, but is still commenting with gaslighting opinions on MY thread. I'm frankly flabbergasted.

Margo Jost I’ll agree, that passive aggressive behaviour when it happens is exhausting. Can’t argue with any of that - I think most of us have probably been on the receiving end of it at some point, maybe.

Bless you for your sweet words; that is so incredibly kind - I had no idea and I’m glad I can brighten your or anyone’s day. I’m sure I’m a pain in the backside to many, heheheh! Ahh the ebb & flow of making connections, don’t you love it!

Stay well x

Pre-moderation may alter the tone of a conversation online. 

It slows it also.

It is work and those moderated may become immoderate at the moderator.

Minutes are good.  Or making a summary of those points made for the first time and about which both a consensus of some degree and some action activity or change may be suggested. The OP would be the most likely person to prepare a minute.  If they have some minutes to spare.

Where the topic arises more than once, an FAQ* consisting of the elements above may be useful, although the least moderate are the least likely to read in advance what has been said before.

Personally, I think footnotes and endnotes are useful, and footnoted footnotes are amusing.

* This TLA† means Frequently Asked Question which implies that it is a Frequently Answered Question, and that the answers are conveniently to hand. 

† Three Letter Abbreviation. Considered harmful by some.

MaristarOxley Hey thanks so much for that!

I was thinking a bit more about your comments on the imbalance of modelling genres and noticed that whatever is typically advertised the most gets the ball rolling on others wanting to shoot more of the same or similar.

What I mean is since the increased momentum of elaborately styled events in gorgeous & interesting locations, more photographers who generally do not have a specific objective seem to be exploring fashion photography where they perhaps hadn’t before.

Exposure to something means more demand.. I think you have to be exposed to something to even recognise it could be option for you.. not unlike giving a client hundreds of thumbnails of their family dog to choose favourites & them choosing the huge already-framed canvas of Rover hanging on the wall because it’s right there & they don’t have to imagine what another photo would look like.

This is gonna sound rude, but people are largely unimaginative because thinking for themselves, especially when too much choice is involved is hard work. I get overwhelmed too, and I live for it.. I still have a hard time envisioning stuff!

This is why I think nude work takes preference in some cases - there’s less to think about, it generally gets more views, a nude body is generally easier to light than various colours / hues / textures in clothing, etc.

I’d love to see even more amateur photographers experimenting with styling & good use of colour, but for some that just won’t bring enjoyment and that’s okay. In the commercial world, the photographer isn’t expected to style the model anyway.

Wouldn’t it be really fun if more amazing fashion designers & make-up artists were on here? The bar is high now & TF ‘chick in a dress’ doesn’t cut it anymore.

Maybe having a broader spectrum of creatives as active members would encourage more expressive, reliable, enthusiastic models to shoot TF collaborations again with talented, non-patronising, non-predatory photographers.

But the thing is, over the last few years many models have become photographers themselves & have become competent in self-portrait photography & finding simple (and complex - but simple is all you need) flattering light.. and thanks to social media, they are networking with wonderful fashion brands & can obtain funky & couture clothing at the drop of a hat.

I guess they’re called influencers; a title I’ve seen stamped into the mud by members here who ‘don’t understand it’ so it’s no wonder they go elsewhere to look for their collaborations, whatever the compensation.

There’s generally too much judgement - I’ve heard all sorts of rude & unnecessary comments about social media collabs between models & designers, implying & even outright describing it as inflated ego rubbish / not a real job, all because the model is also the photographer. For some reason this is still seen to be unorthodox over here.

They’re not all unpaid collabs - there are plenty of models / influencers getting paid good money to essentially advertise clothing brands with whom they’d probably collab purely for images too.

Like freelance models on this site, there are social media influencers who are doing it purely for a few free clothes, but others who are making a very nice income, and everything in between. I think there are too many photographers here who still can’t grasp how or why this is a legitimate thing and most of the ones successfully making it work don’t have the time or energy to explain, especially when they often go unheard.

So as for trying to entice a broader spectrum of good creatives over here.. never say never, but not to be a negative Nancy or nuffin, I think that ship might have sailed..

♥ Chiara Elisabetta "I’d love to see even more amateur photographers experimenting with styling & good use of colour, but for some that just won’t bring enjoyment and that’s okay. In the commercial world, the photographer isn’t expected to style the model anyway.

Wouldn’t it be really fun if more amazing fashion designers & make-up artists were on here? The bar is high now & TF ‘chick in a dress’ doesn’t cut it anymore."

For myself. The issue would still be cost. In my experience, no one wishes to do highly elaborate creative shoots for TFP. A girl in a dress may not cut it. But as an amateur photographer with a finite amount of resources thats all I can provide at the best of times.

I do agree on your points on social media. I think that's a strong reason why these groups are what they're are at the best of times. I used to get a strong response from models when I did Q&As on Instagram. Worked well in obtaining the odd shoot too.

♥ Chiara Elisabetta "This is gonna sound rude, but people are largely unimaginative because thinking for themselves, especially when too much choice is involved is hard work. I get overwhelmed too, and I live for it.. I still have a hard time envisioning stuff!"

I don't think folk have difficulty envisioning stuff...I just think a lot of people have an "amateur" budget and can be displaced by those with more hefty in their resources.

Afrofilmviewer Ah of course, I understand that. But I’m talking about the times where creative TF days with a full team used to be a fairly common thing (they really were back in the 00’s & early 10’s) and contemplating why it’s probably never going to go back to that. Things seem to be different now because situations have changed & I don’t just mean financially.

I know that did sound quite rude about people being unimaginative - I’m not excluding myself from that either - it’s difficult to put it into context. For the record, that’s not my general experience working with others and it’s not really the right word, but experiencing option overwhelm is a thing because photographers have told me they struggle with it and have wanted me to help suggest narratives & concepts during shoots.

Afrofilmviewer , sadly I think Cheryl has a point. There is a whole world of possibilities that can be achieved with minimal resources and maximal creativity that you just don’t see here.

♥ Chiara Elisabetta didn't find it to be rude. As considering the context of your posts.

It's difficult. If I've been a position in which I've had a full team for TF, it's been rare. I do think it's one negative of social media. Now it's constantly about launching things into a career and that's a major change.

I don't have optional overwhelm (yet) and I'm happy that I often know what I want if and when prepping.

But I'm at the point where I wish to build on certain things and can't due how others see things. It's why I've been so involved in the thread. I wouldn't mind more fashion TFP and the like. But in my eyes I think you're probably better off networking else where for anything like that. And I don't think encouragement with these groups/forums would change that.

The Ghost

I'm not so sure. But I think there's other variables for that.

Afrofilmviewer said

♥ Chiara Elisabetta "I’d love to see even more amateur photographers experimenting with styling & good use of colour, but for some that just won’t bring enjoyment and that’s okay. In the commercial world, the photographer isn’t expected to style the model anyway.

Wouldn’t it be really fun if more amazing fashion designers & make-up artists were on here? The bar is high now & TF ‘chick in a dress’ doesn’t cut it anymore."

For myself. The issue would still be cost. In my experience, no one wishes to do highly elaborate creative shoots for TFP. A girl in a dress may not cut it. But as an amateur photographer with a finite amount of resources thats all I can provide at the best of times.

I do agree on your points on social media. I think that's a strong reason why these groups are what they're are at the best of times. I used to get a strong response from models when I did Q&As on Instagram. Worked well in obtaining the odd shoot too.

So why does it have to be TFP? Why are we getting so hung up about it - I'm confused!

Afrofilmviewer You echo my thoughts exactly. Yeah, when TF collabs really dropped off the radar on networking sites like Purpleport, Purestorm when it was still going and the once-popular Net-Model, it was the same kinda time as Instagram peaking in popularity, and when the app started to become more business-orientated.

Have you ever been involved with @uk.shooters on Instagram? Might want to look them up, but not sure of your opinion on groups.. some incredibly creative teams & set-ups going on there right now.

Gothic Image because this is what the OP started the thread on.

♥ Chiara Elisabetta

Will give them a look. Not big on groups due to being on badly run groups when I started. Also the sense of everyone shooting the same thing doesn't appeal.

But groups with a focus on things like lighting are worth while. Bit more tangible to the skillset.

Afrofilmviewer

“In my experience, no one wishes to do highly elaborate creative shoots for TFP.”

Oh they do, but for those models who are not photographers themselves or those who are not in a relationship with a photographer, any photographer seeking TF has to offer something the model really wants for their portfolio; something they couldn’t shoot themselves and be of an exceptional standard because the bar is higher than it’s ever been. Mutual benefit is needed; and that’s also hard to pair fairly..

Models who are photographers and can shoot their own portfolio content might still work TF occasionally with exceptional photographers when the photographer in question has a particular & unique style the model may want in their portfolio (assuming the feeling is mutual)

More than ever, there are photographers who also work as models - mostly women and many who are friends due to crossing paths / mutual interests on duo shoots / events / social parties etc. Two or more models who are already friends & probably both have huge interesting wardrobes will photograph each other TF with their cameras & lighting set-ups, comfortable to experiment for days, stay over, etc. before they cast for TF with a (usually) male photographer they don’t know from a networking site.

I don’t remember any freelance models also doing model photography from around 2005 - 2010-ish, but my network of connections wasn’t so vast then. It deffo seemed to pick up after that, then Covid probably escalated the push into self-portrait work.

I don’t think TF is dead though - this really isn’t supposed to be a pessimistic post for anyone who can’t afford to pay a load of creatives for these fantastical, wild and huge-scale shoots - it just takes a bit more thinking of outside the box, getting really good, (not just the photography but the retouching too) and even more importantly having a unique selling point in style, something which sets the work aside from what everybody else is doing.

It’s the same principle for everyone really.. studios have to step up as models are creating beautiful sets from their homes.. models offering luxury photographic getaways.. bigger.. better.. all the time. I don’t know how it will end, but if you’re going to complete, you have to get creative in more ways than one.

Just to be clear, I’m not referencing anybody’s work or anything specific, just noting it’s incredibly competitive for everybody.