We should be helping each other, not hurting each other

♥ Chiara Elisabetta

Think this is a very honest post. I think your thoughts are on point

"Just as a bit of perspective perhaps, I’m feeling anxiety even preparing to hit the send button on this, in case anyone wants to pick up on something that I’ve worded badly in their opinion or caused them to become triggered. I know text & an absence of tone can be easily misinterpreted anywhere, but it feels more jarring on a forum based discussion for some reason."

Easy for me to say, but I can't see any misinterpretation here. Found this insightful and clear. Granted many of the points I side with anyway but...ya know.



♥ Chiara Elisabetta said

I’ve read through pretty much this whole thread and I’m mentally exhausted - I can’t be the only one. At least this is generally how the forums focusing on any kind of discussion make me feel. I engage sometimes, but I’d be lying if I didn’t admit feeling anxious & drained over the threat of an innocuous discussion ending in a cycle of never-ending personal trolling. It doesn’t happen often for me, but it did a few times about a decade ago and that was enough to mostly put me off long-term.. then you witness similar happening to others. When something becomes a pattern, it’s hard to override the expectation that things will never change, especially as the freelance industry has changed so much in the last few years and models have so many other options to network - whatever your opinion on them, forums really are mostly a thing of the past.

I’m quite a sensitive person, (yay a snowflake!) and receiving constructive critique, (which I can handle) is a whole different kettle of fish to receiving ongoing passive aggressive jibes.

I can’t speak for other models, but I know many full-timers don’t have the time, means or energy to constantly engage anyway; plus I know at least some who feel the same as I do above.

In addition to this, some of us perhaps know things others don’t, which influences our decision on where on the Internet we choose to engage. Working and engaging outside of work are two different things after all. If you don’t like someone in a typical workplace, you can’t just not turn up for work, but you probably wouldn’t attend any group or work social events, which is more of an uncontrolled environment. I think a similar thing is happening here.

I remember Model Mayhem when it used to be super active - it was great, and I remember thinking even back around 8 / 9 years ago when I was shooting a lot as a photographer, how lacking in good make-up artists, hairdressers & stylists the other sites are. MM was really the only place you could easily get a full team together for a fabulous styled fashion shoot.

I’m not sure this is inherently to do with nude vs fashion though. I don’t have the answers but fashion is becoming more prevalent here, especially through beautifully styled events which I believe help to develop photographers’ inspiration to go plan their own 1-2-1 styled shoots with models. A tiny observation from me is that quite a few amateur (and good!) photographers really struggle with the styling aspect of a shoot and I suppose it can be quite intimidating if you’re not used to it. Fashion, at least in my mind isn’t just wearing some clothes vs not - it’s an entire mood - there are colour combinations & cuts & shapes to consider, and for whatever reason quite a few photographers in my experience seem to be reluctant to get involved with this side (I know there are exceptions!)

In general though, models have moved away from networking sites I think - we are still present & engaging for booked work, but our ‘shop window’ engagement & interactive discussion lies elsewhere (mostly social media) and it’s genuinely for a combination of reasons. But all the time the forums are a less-than-desirable place to be, it’s gonna put the nail in the coffin.

Things change.. c’est la vie.

Just as a bit of perspective perhaps, I’m feeling anxiety even preparing to hit the send button on this, in case anyone wants to pick up on something that I’ve worded badly in their opinion or caused them to become triggered. I know text & an absence of tone can be easily misinterpreted anywhere, but it feels more jarring on a forum based discussion for some reason. Maybe it’s a control thing - you can delete / block an unsavoury comment or character on social media and completely remove their existence. Whilst you can block people here, it’s never really a full block, is it. And it’s a much smaller community - becomes awkward when you’ve blocked half the contributing forum users LOL whereas every man & his dog is on social media - it’s vast; a block isn’t going to cause any ripples.. it’s much easier to shut out the negativity & get on with your day.

A completely sensible and well thought out response (obviously so coming from you!!!!) and I cannot imagine anybody taking a  negative view of it.

I have to plead guilty to being one of those photographers that, "is reluctant to get involved with the fashion side of model photography."

It just doesn't interest me and some of the images I see reinforce my position.

I don't know why.

It is just the way I am.

I am not interested in Landscape photography either.

Sorry!

JPea said



I have to plead guilty to being one of those photographers that, "is reluctant to get involved with the fashion side of model photography."

It just doesn't interest me and some of the images I see reinforce my position.

I don't know why.

It is just the way I am.

I am not interested in Landscape photography either.

Sorry!

That all sounds fair to me, each to their own!  :-)

♥ Chiara Elisabetta Thank you very much for your input.

I have nothing to add to it. You've expressed what you want to say, succinctly.

♥ Chiara Elisabetta I think also one of the problems with passive aggressive abuse (across social media and not just PP) is that by it's very nature it is very difficult to report and therefore for someone to do anything about it, meaning the person suffering it generally just has to take it.

Often people, and I am talking about on here and across social media, will not respond directly to the person they are talking about and not refer to them by name. So everyone will know who and what they are refering to but there is no actual direct "evidence" to report to admins / moderators.

This does put admins / moderators in a very difficult position because undoubtedly they will be able to see patterns themselves but find it almost impossible to do anything about it.

Hence why I feel strongly that passive aggressive abuse across social media is far more psychologically damaging to the victim than straight forward, upfront direct abuse.

I think it's also important what you said about a culminative effect of passive aggressive abuse.

We all receive and give sarky and rude responses from time to time. Maybe we're having a bad day or something came across sharper than it should or something is missed in translation, it happens all the time and one off events wouldn't bother anyone.

You may leave a thread thinking "well they were being a dick today" or you might even leave a thread thinking "shit what I said came across harsher than I meant" but then you quickly move on with your day.

But it's when it becomes sustained and targeted that the real psychological damage starts kicking in.

On a positive note in the thread, I think you've given some very insightful and helpful thoughts and I think you are one of the best ambassadors of the community and have thought that for a long time.

You know I am a fan anyway but I can honestly say that when I am having some very black days, seeing your facebook posts always cheer me up and make me happy, and on occasions have actually kept me going when I have felt entirely black. And you don't even know you are helping!

If everyone could take a little from your book I think the world would be a brighter place for everyone.

Edited by Margo Jost

JPea Hey, yeah that’s all completely legit - the thing is as creatives we can advertise ourselves in whatever way we choose - that’s the whole point, right? We have preferences and boundaries and as long as there is respect & no harm to others, we can ask for and advertise whatever we like.

♥ Chiara Elisabetta said

I’ve read through pretty much this whole thread and I’m mentally exhausted - I can’t be the only one. At least this is generally how the forums focusing on any kind of discussion make me feel. I engage sometimes, but I’d be lying if I didn’t admit feeling anxious & drained over the threat of an innocuous discussion ending in a cycle of never-ending personal trolling. It doesn’t happen often for me, but it did a few times about a decade ago and that was enough to mostly put me off long-term.. then you witness similar happening to others. When something becomes a pattern, it’s hard to override the expectation that things will never change, especially as the freelance industry has changed so much in the last few years and models have so many other options to network - whatever your opinion on them, forums really are mostly a thing of the past.

I’m quite a sensitive person, (yay a snowflake!) and receiving constructive critique, (which I can handle) is a whole different kettle of fish to receiving ongoing passive aggressive jibes.

I can’t speak for other models, but I know many full-timers don’t have the time, means or energy to constantly engage anyway; plus I know at least some who feel the same as I do above.

In addition to this, some of us perhaps know things others don’t, which influences our decision on where on the Internet we choose to engage. Working and engaging outside of work are two different things after all. If you don’t like someone in a typical workplace, you can’t just not turn up for work, but you probably wouldn’t attend any group or work social events, which is more of an uncontrolled environment. I think a similar thing is happening here.

I remember Model Mayhem when it used to be super active - it was great, and I remember thinking even back around 8 / 9 years ago when I was shooting a lot as a photographer, how lacking in good make-up artists, hairdressers & stylists the other sites are. MM was really the only place you could easily get a full team together for a fabulous styled fashion shoot.

I’m not sure this is inherently to do with nude vs fashion though. I don’t have the answers but fashion is becoming more prevalent here, especially through beautifully styled events which I believe help to develop photographers’ inspiration to go plan their own 1-2-1 styled shoots with models. A tiny observation from me is that quite a few amateur (and good!) photographers really struggle with the styling aspect of a shoot and I suppose it can be quite intimidating if you’re not used to it. Fashion, at least in my mind isn’t just wearing some clothes vs not - it’s an entire mood - there are colour combinations & cuts & shapes to consider, and for whatever reason quite a few photographers in my experience seem to be reluctant to get involved with this side (I know there are exceptions!)

In general though, models have moved away from networking sites I think - we are still present & engaging for booked work, but our ‘shop window’ engagement & interactive discussion lies elsewhere (mostly social media) and it’s genuinely for a combination of reasons. But all the time the forums are a less-than-desirable place to be, it’s gonna put the nail in the coffin.

Things change.. c’est la vie.

Just as a bit of perspective perhaps, I’m feeling anxiety even preparing to hit the send button on this, in case anyone wants to pick up on something that I’ve worded badly in their opinion or caused them to become triggered. I know text & an absence of tone can be easily misinterpreted anywhere, but it feels more jarring on a forum based discussion for some reason. Maybe it’s a control thing - you can delete / block an unsavoury comment or character on social media and completely remove their existence. Whilst you can block people here, it’s never really a full block, is it. And it’s a much smaller community - becomes awkward when you’ve blocked half the contributing forum users LOL whereas every man & his dog is on social media - it’s vast; a block isn’t going to cause any ripples.. it’s much easier to shut out the negativity & get on with your day.

Chiara, it isn't just models who feel intimidated by posting. When I have tried to defend my opinion it has often got worse. Often my post is turned around to make it look like I am the one in the wrong. Recently I have started to be tougher and shrug it off. When reporting it often takes hours and Admin want to know my reasons when it is obvious but they haven't read the OP. You will have plenty of people on your side. I sometimes get PMs, which is good.

On the point of styling: I had a situation where the model had just sold much of her wardrobe. Probably from being used too much in previous shoots. Rather than cancel I decided to go online and buy end of line items. https://purpleport.com/group/share-a-shoot/196536/Ready-for-Anything/ and was really pleased. The model was over the moon with my choices. Having done it once I won't hesitate having spent less than £100 for clothes originally priced combined at £300.

It would be great if everyone worked together rather than some people always wanting to practice one-upmanship.

ClickMore 📷 Thank you for sharing your experience. It's really good to hear that we can all suffer the slings and arrows of online trolling, but that we will rise above it and enjoy the wonderful collaborations that are possible for any genre.

Quote: It would be great if everyone worked together rather than some people always wanting to practice one-upmanship.

👍🏽

♥ Chiara Elisabetta it's what I wanted this thread to be all about and I thank you for explaining it way better than I obviously can.

Margo Jost I agree with your concerns. The issue with the reporting is that essentially the trolls are not doing anything legally wrong, but are doing something morally wrong, which has no consequences online. I feel that it's possibly up to the people in a thread to let them know, that we won't take on what they are saying.

MaristarOxley unfortunately I've tried to do that and then I've suddenly had a hoard jumping on me. It only actually amounts to around 4 people, the same people each time but it can feel like you're being hunted and it's a very unpleasant feeling and not one I want to keep experiencing.

The sad thing is that the VAST majority of people who do take part in the forums are good and nice people, it really is a tiny minority that are relentless.

I don't believe I am the only one who has experienced it either as I have seen other models and even other photographers experiencing the same.

I have even contacted people in private message to ask very nicely and politely for them to leave me out of their comments as I found it upsetting and I have been ignored then the behaviour continued but worse.

I don't really see an answer to it unfortunately as a wider problem but for me personally, I have now blocked all the culprits, that are 4 and if they do continue with their behaviour towards me, tagging me or trying to bait me then I will just respond with "you are a bully in my opinion, please do not interact with me further directly or indirectly and please respect my choice" and then will just never respond to them or read their comments again. So if they do continue, they'll only be affecting themselves and make themselves look bad.

I don't like blocking people in general but I also prefer a block to be a full block when it happens but in the absence of a full block being available on here, that is the next best option.

But it being a wider problem, I can only suggest that people do what I have done. You can't control how people treat you but you can control your reaction to it.

Edited by Margo Jost

Margo Jost said

♥ Chiara Elisabetta I think also one of the problems with passive aggressive abuse (across social media and not just PP) is that by it's very nature it is very difficult to report and therefore for someone to do anything about it, meaning the person suffering it generally just has to take it.

Often people, and I am talking about on here and across social media, will not respond directly to the person they are talking about and not refer to them by name. So everyone will know who and what they are refering to but there is no actual direct "evidence" to report to admins / moderators.

This does put admins / moderators in a very difficult position because undoubtedly they will be able to see patterns themselves but find it almost impossible to do anything about it.

 

I think it's more difficult than that - sometimes the admins/moderators don't see a pattern and therefore can't do anything about it.

Gothic Image that is a good point. I think often it can actually be so subtle that only really the person doing it and the person recieving it can see what's going on.

Very difficult to deal with at all levels.

But this site is certainly not unique in having this problem, you do see it on nearly every single site where people congregate.

One thing to consider is that often someone will pick a reply that someone
else has written and claim it to be abusive, aggressive, or whatnot.

Rarely the thread opener claims that first.

The OP will then often follow, because the person first to complain about
the claimed abuse turned the thread opener into a victim this way.

This way those first complainers can make a thread opener with a weak
self-confidence feel abused even if the author of the incriminated posting
never intended any harm, neither implicit nor explicit.

And then others follow as a mob, after this first complainer
has opened the hunt, and the discussion quickly goes south.

The first complainer will always say that his/her posting was meant
to protect the thread opener, while in reality the complaint exposed
the OP as a victim - which the OP probably wasn't until this complaint
surfaced and thus turned the OP into one..

We would certainly gain a lot if folks refrain from deciding for others
that they have to feel abused.

Afrofilmviewer Lol thanks.. I’ll try harder to ruffle some feathers next time then ;)

ClickMore 📷 Ah sorry you’ve experienced a shitshow of poor communication on here too. I went to have a look at your styled shoot - really good work there, great stuff.

I got a bit triggered once by a photographer years ago writing on the forum that models just don’t care about their job when they pick up old used cheap rubbish from charity shops instead of investing in quality pieces. Ha, lucky I have more of a backbone now - some of the most precious items I’ve ever bought have been found in charity shops - unique, vintage (or modern) interesting cuts..!

You can’t change everybody’s opinion - anyway someone once told me it’s not what you have, it’s what you do with it - hahaa!