How Taiwan beat covid

GhostOfArielAdam said

David JC said

GhostOfArielAdam said

David JC said

Anne May said

We seem to have said exactly the same thing! Hopefully we're great minds that think alike and not fools who seldom differ...

It's a shame the WHO doesn't assess Taiwan, for entirely political reasons. 

I did try to find a ranking system that considers Taiwan but I couldn't. It's excluded from the OECD as well, which is usually a good guide to these things. From what I can make out, it's a single-payer system with universal coverage with indicators that place it in the top rank of the world's healthcare systems.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3960712/

Skimmed it a bit... main complaint seems to be access is too easy lol

Skimmed it myself. The salient point seems to be that it's very good!

Bob @ Fatbloke said

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

Seven steps to the gutter eh?  Pretty good, even in PP terms.

If you are referring to my post, 80,000 people who foster children bankrupted through actions of a government which refuses to take responsibility, is the gutter. It is one of many government actions that has created anger in the Netherlands while it looks after the rich. The pandemic is probably not the main reason for the rioting and protesting but the spark. 

The fact is, the more rightwing a government, the more incompetent they seem to be in tackling the pandemic.

Edited by vanBrughuis

I was, and how quickly an argument can become "Ad Hominem", or socio-politically biased.

Truth is, it is easy to sit with a pile of brickbats to throw, armed with hindsight, and words like "Too Slow", "Foolhardy", "Too Late", "Too Early", etc.  When the truth is hindsight is always too late in firefighting, adding value more in fire prevention.

I cannot abide people who try and make political gain when they have not been tested.

Take a turn in the front line, then speak from experience perhaps?

There is enough to compare government decision making with because there are other governments to compare to. However, the members of this government have a track record of incompetence going back along way and they do not disappoint. Incompetence is there and thousands of unnecessary deaths because too many people look the other way. But the substance of my point was the Dutch government and the riots over the pandemic.

 

Edited by vanBrughuis

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

Seven steps to the gutter eh?  Pretty good, even in PP terms.

If you are referring to my post, 80,000 people who foster children bankrupted through actions of a government which refuses to take responsibility, is the gutter. It is one of many government actions that has created anger in the Netherlands while it looks after the rich. The pandemic is probably not the main reason for the rioting and protesting but the spark. 

The fact is, the more rightwing a government, the more incompetent they seem to be in tackling the pandemic.

Edited by vanBrughuis

I was, and how quickly an argument can become "Ad Hominem", or socio-politically biased.

Truth is, it is easy to sit with a pile of brickbats to throw, armed with hindsight, and words like "Too Slow", "Foolhardy", "Too Late", "Too Early", etc.  When the truth is hindsight is always too late in firefighting, adding value more in fire prevention.

I cannot abide people who try and make political gain when they have not been tested.

Take a turn in the front line, then speak from experience perhaps?

There is enough to compare government decision making with because there are other governments to compare to. However, the members of this government have a track record of incompetence going back along way and they do not disappoint. Incompetence is there and thousands of unnecessary deaths because too many people look the other way. But the substance of my point was the Dutch government and the riots over the pandemic.

 

Edited by vanBrughuis

Just consider......if you take your political views left enough, the tanks on the streets, and armed troops arresting people, and jailing them in camps might be threat enough to control a population quietly, even if merely a threat?

Either political extreme can cock things up, I'd wager, but they have different symptoms.

Meaningless when we are discussing the incumbent government decisions. There hasn't been a leftwing government in the UK for 40 years, some would say 70, which incidentally didn't arrest people but created the NHS. 

Anyway, I'm out of here.

Edited by vanBrughuis

David JC said

Anne May said

imagery said

The better a countries health care system is the more people fail to look after themselves (smoking, diet e.t.c.) in the knowledge they will be saved. Air ambulances , advanced cancer treatments , expensive sustaining medications e.t.c.

The better a countries health care system is the more vulnerable people there are that could and die in a pandemic, where the ability to sustain life, that would have otherwise been extinct suddenly changes.

I think this may well be one of the reasons for a lot of the relative ("apparent") success or failure in preventing a rise is excess deaths.

Are you basing this on the UK or other countries? Taiwan has an excellent healthcare system and controlled the Covid outbreak well, while the US is known for having a terrible healthcare system and has had one of the highest Covid death rates or so I've heard.

We seem to have said exactly the same thing! Hopefully we're great minds that think alike and not fools who seldom differ...

Haha yes, I saw your post the second after I posted! We only pointed out an observation so we're probably okay on that front. ;)

Bob @ Fatbloke said

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

Seven steps to the gutter eh?  Pretty good, even in PP terms.

If you are referring to my post, 80,000 people who foster children bankrupted through actions of a government which refuses to take responsibility, is the gutter. It is one of many government actions that has created anger in the Netherlands while it looks after the rich. The pandemic is probably not the main reason for the rioting and protesting but the spark. 

The fact is, the more rightwing a government, the more incompetent they seem to be in tackling the pandemic.

Edited by vanBrughuis

I was, and how quickly an argument can become "Ad Hominem", or socio-politically biased.

Truth is, it is easy to sit with a pile of brickbats to throw, armed with hindsight, and words like "Too Slow", "Foolhardy", "Too Late", "Too Early", etc.  When the truth is hindsight is always too late in firefighting, adding value more in fire prevention.

I cannot abide people who try and make political gain when they have not been tested.

Take a turn in the front line, then speak from experience perhaps?

There is enough to compare government decision making with because there are other governments to compare to. However, the members of this government have a track record of incompetence going back along way and they do not disappoint. Incompetence is there and thousands of unnecessary deaths because too many people look the other way. But the substance of my point was the Dutch government and the riots over the pandemic.

 

Edited by vanBrughuis

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

Seven steps to the gutter eh?  Pretty good, even in PP terms.

If you are referring to my post, 80,000 people who foster children bankrupted through actions of a government which refuses to take responsibility, is the gutter. It is one of many government actions that has created anger in the Netherlands while it looks after the rich. The pandemic is probably not the main reason for the rioting and protesting but the spark. 

The fact is, the more rightwing a government, the more incompetent they seem to be in tackling the pandemic.

Edited by vanBrughuis

I was, and how quickly an argument can become "Ad Hominem", or socio-politically biased.

Truth is, it is easy to sit with a pile of brickbats to throw, armed with hindsight, and words like "Too Slow", "Foolhardy", "Too Late", "Too Early", etc.  When the truth is hindsight is always too late in firefighting, adding value more in fire prevention.

I cannot abide people who try and make political gain when they have not been tested.

Take a turn in the front line, then speak from experience perhaps?

There is enough to compare government decision making with because there are other governments to compare to. However, the members of this government have a track record of incompetence going back along way and they do not disappoint. Incompetence is there and thousands of unnecessary deaths because too many people look the other way. But the substance of my point was the Dutch government and the riots over the pandemic.

 

Edited by vanBrughuis

Just consider......if you take your political views left enough, the tanks on the streets, and armed troops arresting people, and jailing them in camps might be threat enough to control a population quietly, even if merely a threat?

Either political extreme can cock things up, I'd wager, but they have different symptoms.

It isn't hindsight when you say at the time something is wrong. You might be proved right (or wrong) in hindsight and only people without the basic facts would believe Johnson's continual lie that many of his poor/stupid/late decisions were only challenged in hindsight.

You don't need much knowledge or to wait for hindsight  to realise that forcing people who arrive from (currently) high risk countries to be locked up in hotels is a complete charade. ALL medical opinion and the views of other UK countries is that it won't do anything. In the first wave people from China were put in quarantine (somewhere in Liverpool I think) so the infection was imported from Italy instead.

I think there are two sensible views on this 1) do nothing - bearing in mind that borders are already closed to foreign nationals travelling from those places 

OR 2) quarantine anyone arriving. 

I think a sensible argument/discussion can be had between the two options. The Johnson option (like so many previous lack of clear decisions) is not a credible or defensible position.

After initially (at least passively) supporting Johnson, the Labour Party have increasingly proposed/urged the action which Boris eventually has turned to ( e.g. Firebreak lockdown, current lockdown, no Christmas relaxations) and other things which are still screwed up because of the Government's pre-occupation with handing out cash to their mates rather than giving jobs to competent people - particularly Tracing and isolation which will be vital in combination with vacinations if we are to come out of lockdown before next winter. Still many people just can't afford to isolate and some are not even taking tests because of that according to many surveys.

Supporting Cummings driving through the lockdown rules was not something that was a disaster in hindsight..... it was glaringly obvious at the time that saying the rules don't apply to the elite (including Boris's father)  destroyed any 'we're all in this together' spirit. And today the clown is having a day out in Scotland .......

In summary we have got what was expected when you have a government full of C-list sycophants. I may not agree with their politics, but there are competent people in the Tory party and if they had been in the cabinet we could have expected a better response. But if they weren't dodgy enough to support Brexit, there was no place for them in the Cabinet. 

Anne May said

David JC said

Anne May said

imagery said

The better a countries health care system is the more people fail to look after themselves (smoking, diet e.t.c.) in the knowledge they will be saved. Air ambulances , advanced cancer treatments , expensive sustaining medications e.t.c.

The better a countries health care system is the more vulnerable people there are that could and die in a pandemic, where the ability to sustain life, that would have otherwise been extinct suddenly changes.

I think this may well be one of the reasons for a lot of the relative ("apparent") success or failure in preventing a rise is excess deaths.

Are you basing this on the UK or other countries? Taiwan has an excellent healthcare system and controlled the Covid outbreak well, while the US is known for having a terrible healthcare system and has had one of the highest Covid death rates or so I've heard.

We seem to have said exactly the same thing! Hopefully we're great minds that think alike and not fools who seldom differ...

Haha yes, I saw your post the second after I posted! We only pointed out an observation so we're probably okay on that front. ;)

Yes that's a good point , although i suspect it is how you rate a countries health care system.

I believe that Taiwan until recently had a very poor system until the late 1990's ?

The USA actually has very good outcomes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_of_healthcare (sorry for wikki) 
I think good health care gets masked by various arguments such as Excellent for 90% of the population and terrible for 10% in say the USA
Where as in the UK its Good for 95% Excellent for 5%
Debating who has good health care is difficult but it is possible to demonstrate outcomes and resulting population demographics, in the UK it seems we have 6 million people extremely vulnerable , who have now been vaccinated and perhaps the same again just vulnerable. Some countries have much smaller proportions of populations in the health care system. 

In the context of my point it would perhaps be relevant for sustained good health care with good outcomes over longer periods 

I don't doubt though the ability to protect those vulnerable populations has varied greatly and countries like the USA have failed to do anything

It is also down to how seriously countries take it. In February I was posting that the cost of masks are nothing (2p each), yet the western-world is letting people source their own made from tee shirts. If they were serious then every entrance to a shop would have government supplied free masks. The overall cost to society would have been less than the mask cost.

I'm no fan of the government but I think we're a bit quick to lay this entirely at their feet.  The amount of conversations I've had with people when restrictions were lifted slightly and we could work on set again and go to pubs etc etc  where they've said "the government should have done x, y or z" then we'd be in a better place. 

Yes, they could have reacted quicker, differently, more effectively, but so could we.  I remember seeing the news reports of Wuhan when it first broke, and people were walking around with makeshift masks and PPE and we were laughing thinking that was a problem we'd never have to worry about over here. 

Anyway, we get through lockdown 1.0 and then the government says "okay we'll open pubs" so the public immediately hit the pubs on mass.  Surely the public could have foreseen it might have been sensible to exercise some caution at that point and not hit the pubs as much as we did, regardless of the government saying they can open.  They didn't say "Pubs are open, go crazy guys!"

(I said this last year, sat in the safety of a pub booth with no mask on - because I was allowed to be).

Mistrust should work both ways, not just when it's a decision that we don't like.

My point being, we're so busy being at odds with each other in the West with Brexit, Conspiracies, Party preference, Coke/Pepsi, whatever it might be, that it's almost inconceivable to work together towards something.  We don't trust the government, they don't trust us.  We both have good reason.

Sowing seeds of mistrust has become a hobby.  Tribalism and polarisation seems like it's fun to some people.  Then it just becomes how we are.

Look at PP.  Tons of talented people spending most of their time at each other's throats.  We could all be on forums helping people improve, offering advice, being accepting of people when their opinion differs and trying to understand their point of view.  Instead everyone's a moron, block that person, silence the conversation, dig deeper...

Maybe Taiwan is just a bit better at communicating, being understanding and working together.  Maybe it was a million contributing factors...

harbuzenger said

I'm no fan of the government but I think we're a bit quick to lay this entirely at their feet.  The amount of conversations I've had with people when restrictions were lifted slightly and we could work on set again and go to pubs etc etc  where they've said "the government should have done x, y or z" then we'd be in a better place. 

Yes, they could have reacted quicker, differently, more effectively, but so could we.  I remember seeing the news reports of Wuhan when it first broke, and people were walking around with makeshift masks and PPE and we were laughing thinking that was a problem we'd never have to worry about over here. 

Anyway, we get through lockdown 1.0 and then the government says "okay we'll open pubs" so the public immediately hit the pubs on mass.  Surely the public could have foreseen it might have been sensible to exercise some caution at that point and not hit the pubs as much as we did, regardless of the government saying they can open.  They didn't say "Pubs are open, go crazy guys!"

(I said this last year, sat in the safety of a pub booth with no mask on - because I was allowed to be).

Mistrust should work both ways, not just when it's a decision that we don't like.

My point being, we're so busy being at odds with each other in the West with Brexit, Conspiracies, Party preference, Coke/Pepsi, whatever it might be, that it's almost inconceivable to work together towards something.  We don't trust the government, they don't trust us.  We both have good reason.

Sowing seeds of mistrust has become a hobby.  Tribalism and polarisation seems like it's fun to some people.  Then it just becomes how we are.

Look at PP.  Tons of talented people spending most of their time at each other's throats.  We could all be on forums helping people improve, offering advice, being accepting of people when their opinion differs and trying to understand their point of view.  Instead everyone's a moron, block that person, silence the conversation, dig deeper...

Maybe Taiwan is just a bit better at communicating, being understanding and working together.  Maybe it was a million contributing factors...

That's what I found interesting about the article, and why I searched for something on Taiwan in the first place. A lot of people are quick to dismiss the UK death toll because "we're a crowded island". Taiwan is a much more crowded island than the UK, as are many other places. It really does seem like the first SARS outbreak is a big factor in how well countries have handled the pandemic. They've applied the precautionary principle, when European and US governments have not. 

Regards opening pubs, the messaging that these venues were safe was pervasive. I went out a bit over summer, but average daily cases in my area were around 1 per 100,000 from June to September. Once it was obvious that a second wave was taking off in late September, that test and trace wasn't containing things, it was obvious that risks were going up and I stopped going. The Government could have acted then. They didn't learn from first wave or from other countries actions.

Regards opening pubs, the messaging that these venues were safe was pervasive. I went out a bit over summer, but average daily cases in my area were around 1 per 100,000 from June to September. Once it was obvious that a second wave was taking off in late September, that test and trace wasn't containing things, it was obvious that risks were going up and I stopped going. The Government could have acted then. They didn't learn from first wave or from other countries actions.

Kind of my point though.  We believe the positives and act accordingly, but many don't want to act accordingly to the negatives.  I went out a few times, after the agoraphobia passed.  Didn't go mad or anything, but considering we were definitely not out of the woods at that point, I could have easily decided to carry on as before to help us get over the line.  

But then you have the economy argument.  Furlough will get people through for now, but the damage done to people's livelihoods and future prospects is going to be huge.  I honestly don't know what I'd have done had I been in charge. 

We're the inwardly combative crew of a massive oil tanker.  Maybe we just can't adapt quickly enough, whether that's through denial, hubris, inadequacy, infighting, who knows...

GhostOfArielAdam said

harbuzenger said

I'm no fan of the government but I think we're a bit quick to lay this entirely at their feet.  The amount of conversations I've had with people when restrictions were lifted slightly and we could work on set again and go to pubs etc etc  where they've said "the government should have done x, y or z" then we'd be in a better place. 

Yes, they could have reacted quicker, differently, more effectively, but so could we.  I remember seeing the news reports of Wuhan when it first broke, and people were walking around with makeshift masks and PPE and we were laughing thinking that was a problem we'd never have to worry about over here. 

Anyway, we get through lockdown 1.0 and then the government says "okay we'll open pubs" so the public immediately hit the pubs on mass.  Surely the public could have foreseen it might have been sensible to exercise some caution at that point and not hit the pubs as much as we did, regardless of the government saying they can open.  They didn't say "Pubs are open, go crazy guys!"

(I said this last year, sat in the safety of a pub booth with no mask on - because I was allowed to be).

Mistrust should work both ways, not just when it's a decision that we don't like.

My point being, we're so busy being at odds with each other in the West with Brexit, Conspiracies, Party preference, Coke/Pepsi, whatever it might be, that it's almost inconceivable to work together towards something.  We don't trust the government, they don't trust us.  We both have good reason.

Sowing seeds of mistrust has become a hobby.  Tribalism and polarisation seems like it's fun to some people.  Then it just becomes how we are.

Look at PP.  Tons of talented people spending most of their time at each other's throats.  We could all be on forums helping people improve, offering advice, being accepting of people when their opinion differs and trying to understand their point of view.  Instead everyone's a moron, block that person, silence the conversation, dig deeper...

Maybe Taiwan is just a bit better at communicating, being understanding and working together.  Maybe it was a million contributing factors...

That's what I found interesting about the article, and why I searched for something on Taiwan in the first place. A lot of people are quick to dismiss the UK death toll because "we're a crowded island". Taiwan is a much more crowded island than the UK, as are many other places. It really does seem like the first SARS outbreak is a big factor in how well countries have handled the pandemic. They've applied the precautionary principle, when European and US governments have not. 

Regards opening pubs, the messaging that these venues were safe was pervasive. I went out a bit over summer, but average daily cases in my area were around 1 per 100,000 from June to September. Once it was obvious that a second wave was taking off in late September, that test and trace wasn't containing things, it was obvious that risks were going up and I stopped going. The Government could have acted then. They didn't learn from first wave or from other countries actions.

I've mentioned Taiwan in the past. They were hit very badly by SARS and learnt from it. The WHO is a political animal, as much as any National Government, largely because that is how they are funded and it is why the story of Taiwan has been silent. I watched a programme the other night on China's response and they were just as slow as many other countries, despite what is being said publicly. Most countries could have some level of criticism levelled at them, but Taiwan is probably one of the few that has made lots of right choices. In terms of population, they could be a uitable comparison to the UK, but in terms of culture and social history, they are very different. They are out on a bit of a limb, so it is natural for everyone there to co-operate with each other for a greater good and that is something else that the UK and Europe (not to mention the US) could learn from. Division and dischord do not make for coherent policy-making and buy-in.

harbuzenger said

But then you have the economy argument.  Furlough will get people through for now, but the damage done to people's livelihoods and future prospects is going to be huge.  I honestly don't know what I'd have done had I been in charge. 

There’s one thing for sure. Whichever possible action you consider, there’s a vociferous group somewhere suggesting the opposite - or being really ‘clever’ and suggesting it a couple of days before it’s announced when it’s already being widely discussed.

mph said

harbuzenger said

But then you have the economy argument.  Furlough will get people through for now, but the damage done to people's livelihoods and future prospects is going to be huge.  I honestly don't know what I'd have done had I been in charge. 

There’s one thing for sure. Whichever possible action you consider, there’s a vociferous group somewhere suggesting the opposite - or being really ‘clever’ and suggesting it a couple of days before it’s announced when it’s already being widely discussed.

Quite - damned if you do, damned if you don't.

mph said

harbuzenger said

But then you have the economy argument.  Furlough will get people through for now, but the damage done to people's livelihoods and future prospects is going to be huge.  I honestly don't know what I'd have done had I been in charge. 

There’s one thing for sure. Whichever possible action you consider, there’s a vociferous group somewhere suggesting the opposite - or being really ‘clever’ and suggesting it a couple of days before it’s announced when it’s already being widely discussed.

You mean when the scientific advice becomes public and the government are shown to have ignored it or just refused to make a decision.

Take the current quarantine announcement, your argument just doesn't wash. There are two reasonable alternativess on forced quarantine, either do it for all incoming people, or don't bother at all. The actual choice of action is clearly nothing more than paying lip service to the problem, with no discernible benefits, but all the costs (unless it is enforced like the current quarantine, ie not at all). 

The only problem with emulating Taiwan is we are not Taiwan. People like to cherry-pick other countries approach without being prepared to adopt their approach to everything, culturally, socially, politically and geographically. Taiwan is a highly compliant mono-culture which for many years was a quasi-dictatorship. It is 200 miles from the nearest place. It is highly surveilled and controlled. people use face masks when they are sick, don't hug and kiss as we do, and look at shaking hands as a bit odd. It is however also way above the UK in terms of freedoms and has treated peoplke as adults. That however is within a cultural context. it is much smaller than the UK and has a much smaller population. Education levels are higher, health levels are far better, and it's Government did not adopt the types of polices that saw tens of thousands of elderly exposed to the virus. They had pandemic response facilities in place. Moreover their policies are purely about health and do not link them to Great Resets, pop-up cycle lanes, LTNs, climate change. They despise China but we copy it.

https://www.newswise.com/coronavirus/eliminating-covid-19-what-the-world-can-learn-from-nz-and-taiwan

Gothic Image said

More people who can't distinguish between the COVID group and General Politics ...  :-(

If only the Government, the other political parties, the EU et c, would detach COVID from politicking. The two are inextricably linked in their heads hence why policies are shambolic and repressive.