Not a Pity Post

Everly Rose fair do's :)

I definitely don't mind if I read £35ph plus travel and accommodation if required, totally reasonable. But when there's nothing to go on it could be anything between £15ph and £60ph haha.

It's totally up to you of course! It's just something that would put me off :)

FiL said

Rates wise I don't think £35ph is at all whacky for an established individual who relies on modelling for their income. But it's probably £5 per hour more than most other models who offer the same levels and whilst I personally wouldn't give it a second thought if I wanted to work with you, some other photographers are likely to.

I guess it depends how dependent you are economically on photographers who always top out at £30 (regardless of the advantages you mention) - I think there's likely to be quite a few of them. There's probably very little you can do to get them to pay more than they're accustomed to, and from what you say you're running into those guys at least occasionally.

Some models might welcome additional local bookings albeit at a discounted rate if their circumstances demand it. Other models might remain comfortable without those bookings. A photographer who sticks doggedly to a top end rate isn't terribly different to a model who sticks doggedly to her rate. Both are right and both are wrong, depending on how you look at it!

Thanks for the feedback it's much appreciated. 

I did charge £30ph but after speaking with some model friends most of them are charging between 40 and 65ph and thought I was underselling myself for the skills I have. Maybe £30 is a more reasonable hourly home rate? This is why I have started the thread it's helping me a lot listening to everyone's opinions.

Maybe I will offer hourly rates of £30ph for home shoots. I can't offer this at my studio as I have to factor in my rent and the fact its a 50 minute drive each way for me, It's a hard one because when I started out 10 years ago I charged £20ph but I am 10 times the model I was back then now. I'm really conflicted because I don't want to undersell myself but on the other hand I need the regular work.

A Shot in the Dark said

Everly Rose fair do's :)

I definitely don't mind if I read £35ph plus travel and accommodation if required, totally reasonable. But when there's nothing to go on it could be anything between £15ph and £60ph haha.

It's totally up to you of course! It's just something that would put me off :)

Thank you

Your still on my WTWW list, have been for years I really appreciate you taking the time to help :)

I don't think rates necessarily have anything to do with skills and don't think models in majority relate it to skill because other wise new models wouldn't be trying to get what experienced models are getting and other photographers wouldn't support it. What you get paid and what somoeone pays out is simply about what two people agree to. Of course there's the experience bit, modelling ability etc but it's just an agreement between two people.

Edited by Wondrous

Everly Rose said

A Shot in the Dark said

Everly Rose fair do's :)

I definitely don't mind if I read £35ph plus travel and accommodation if required, totally reasonable. But when there's nothing to go on it could be anything between £15ph and £60ph haha.

It's totally up to you of course! It's just something that would put me off :)

Thank you

Your still on my WTWW list, have been for years I really appreciate you taking the time to help :)

I didn't even realise! I am the worst for looking at lists haha! 

A Shot in the Dark said

Everly Rose said

A Shot in the Dark said

Everly Rose fair do's :)

I definitely don't mind if I read £35ph plus travel and accommodation if required, totally reasonable. But when there's nothing to go on it could be anything between £15ph and £60ph haha.

It's totally up to you of course! It's just something that would put me off :)

Thank you

Your still on my WTWW list, have been for years I really appreciate you taking the time to help :)

I didn't even realise! I am the worst for looking at lists haha! 

haha No worries :) 

Wondrous said

I don't think rates necessarily have anything to do with skills and don't think models in majority relate it to skill because other wise new models wouldn't be trying to get what experienced models are getting and other photographers wouldn't support it. What you get paid and what somoeone pays out is simply about what two people agree to. Of course there's the experience bit, modelling ability etc but it's just an agreement between two people.

Edited by Wondrous

Yes totally, I've seen new models with a handful of selfies asking for extortionate rates and on the other hand there are models with vast experience that will do over and above for stupidly cheap rates. It's so hard to gauge, I know what I am worth but unless you work with me you aren't to know so it's a hard one. I'll try to put it into words in my notes but I don't want to go on too much or come across self centred.

Edited by Everly Rose

Everly Rose said

FiL said

Rates wise I don't think £35ph is at all whacky for an established individual who relies on modelling for their income. But it's probably £5 per hour more than most other models who offer the same levels and whilst I personally wouldn't give it a second thought if I wanted to work with you, some other photographers are likely to.

I guess it depends how dependent you are economically on photographers who always top out at £30 (regardless of the advantages you mention) - I think there's likely to be quite a few of them. There's probably very little you can do to get them to pay more than they're accustomed to, and from what you say you're running into those guys at least occasionally.

Some models might welcome additional local bookings albeit at a discounted rate if their circumstances demand it. Other models might remain comfortable without those bookings. A photographer who sticks doggedly to a top end rate isn't terribly different to a model who sticks doggedly to her rate. Both are right and both are wrong, depending on how you look at it!

Thanks for the feedback it's much appreciated. 

I did charge £30ph but after speaking with some model friends most of them are charging between 40 and 65ph and thought I was underselling myself for the skills I have. Maybe £30 is a more reasonable hourly home rate? This is why I have started the thread it's helping me a lot listening to everyone's opinions.

Maybe I will offer hourly rates of £30ph for home shoots. I can't offer this at my studio as I have to factor in my rent and the fact its a 50 minute drive each way for me, It's a hard one because when I started out 10 years ago I charged £20ph but I am 10 times the model I was back then now. I'm really conflicted because I don't want to undersell myself but on the other hand I need the regular work.

I'm only going by my own experience (and a few other photographers I know well), obviously, but I can tell you that none of the models I've worked with over the past couple of years, nor the ones I'm booked to work with in the current year (including three this weekend) have asked for more than £30 per hour. Probably 50% of the time models avoid giving me a price after I've explained what I'm after, but that's fine as I'm used to dealing with that. A quick delve into my inbox reveals recent messages from well-known models whose portfolios are top drawer and who are offering shoots for £20 per hour up to nude and even open leg. TBH that paints a worrisome picture of the state of modelling at the moment.

It's also the case that the very best models I've ever worked with, and most experienced photographers would I'm sure agree with me, are not appreciably more expensive to book than the norm.

More than a decade ago when I ran a studio I'd fly in overseas models. Sufficient photographers were willing to pay a premium to shoot a new (to the UK) face they otherwise couldn't afford - but were willing to pay typically £60-£70 per hour even back then. There's some kind of novelty factor which kicks in and encourages some photographers to dip into their pensions.

I think the basic problem which most experienced and capable models have to face when working the modelling sites is that the majority of internet photographers believe they're incapable of utilising those models' skills fully and hence they're not prepared to pay extra for something they believe won't benefit them despite anything you say. And others just want to shoot the same thing over-and-over again, just with a new face (or body), and have absolutely no desire for variety or to progress.

Edited by FiL

Everly Rose said

Wondrous said

I don't think rates necessarily have anything to do with skills and don't think models in majority relate it to skill because other wise new models wouldn't be trying to get what experienced models are getting and other photographers wouldn't support it. What you get paid and what somoeone pays out is simply about what two people agree to. Of course there's the experience bit, modelling ability etc but it's just an agreement between two people.

Edited by Wondrous

Yes totally, I've seen new models with a handful of selfies asking for extortionate rates and on the other hand there are models with vast experience that will do over and above for stupidly cheap rates. It's so hard to gauge, I know what I am worth but unless you work with me you aren't to know so it's a hard one. I'll try to put it into words in my notes but I don't want to go on too much or come across self centred.

Edited by Everly Rose

OK, here' a different way of thinking about it:

- stop thinking "what I'm worth"

- start thinking "what puts most money into my bank acount at the end of the year".

- be cold blooded about it.

Everly Rose said

...  I did charge £30ph but after speaking with some model friends most of them are charging between 40 and 65ph and thought I was underselling myself for the skills I have. Maybe £30 is a more reasonable hourly home rate?...

A few random thoughts:

If you shoot once a week for two hours at £65, you put £130 in the bank.

If you shoot once a week for eight hours at £25, you put £200 in the bank.

Same job, your skills are the same either way.

***********

I'd suggest trying to get one or two local regulars who will shoot at £25 per hour for 8 hours, once a month.
Two shoots a month a £200 per day puts £400 per month into your bank - or £4,800 per year.

That's your bread and butter money.

Four hours...    £35 per hour.  £140

Two hours...   £45 per hour.  £90.

One hour...  £75.

You want local repeat business.

***************

Then there are the people who book you once, and never again.
Add £5 per hour. £240, £160, £100, £80.

After the shoot, tell them there's a £5 per hour discount for all shoots after the first one (assuming they have been pleasant to shoot with)

**************

When you travel, it needs to be worth it.
Maybe £240 full day and £160 half day. 
Doubt you'll make much with two hour shoots unless it's a studio day you can fill.

***********************

35 years self employed.
I have my "bread and butter clients" who send me a lot of work. I look after them, and they pay less than the others.
I have my "once or twice a year clients". I look after them - they might become "bread and butter clients". They pay at least 20% more.
I have my "once a year when they are desperate" clients. They pay 50% more.
I have my "pain in the arse clients". They can pay twice as much because I don't care if they don't come back.

*******************

I have shot great models who charge £200 per day (probably more like £250 per day since Covid).
Guess what - I shoot with them a lot.
As much as I can fit in with a heavy work load and a lot of other demands on my time. More than teh references suggest, because we don't really bother.

I've also shot one or two great models at £75 per hour. Usually for four hours, and only once.

*******************

Can you trust me? Probably, because I'm not just down the road and trying to get a cheap shoot.

Can you trust other models? Probably, but they are your competitors, not your friends. If you put your rate up so high that they get the work instead....

FiL said

Everly Rose said

FiL said

Rates wise I don't think £35ph is at all whacky for an established individual who relies on modelling for their income. But it's probably £5 per hour more than most other models who offer the same levels and whilst I personally wouldn't give it a second thought if I wanted to work with you, some other photographers are likely to.

I guess it depends how dependent you are economically on photographers who always top out at £30 (regardless of the advantages you mention) - I think there's likely to be quite a few of them. There's probably very little you can do to get them to pay more than they're accustomed to, and from what you say you're running into those guys at least occasionally.

Some models might welcome additional local bookings albeit at a discounted rate if their circumstances demand it. Other models might remain comfortable without those bookings. A photographer who sticks doggedly to a top end rate isn't terribly different to a model who sticks doggedly to her rate. Both are right and both are wrong, depending on how you look at it!

Thanks for the feedback it's much appreciated. 

I did charge £30ph but after speaking with some model friends most of them are charging between 40 and 65ph and thought I was underselling myself for the skills I have. Maybe £30 is a more reasonable hourly home rate? This is why I have started the thread it's helping me a lot listening to everyone's opinions.

Maybe I will offer hourly rates of £30ph for home shoots. I can't offer this at my studio as I have to factor in my rent and the fact its a 50 minute drive each way for me, It's a hard one because when I started out 10 years ago I charged £20ph but I am 10 times the model I was back then now. I'm really conflicted because I don't want to undersell myself but on the other hand I need the regular work.

I'm only going by my own experience (and a few other photographers I know well), obviously, but I can tell you that none of the models I've worked with over the past couple of years, nor the ones I'm booked to work with in the current year (including three this weekend) have asked for more than £30 per hour. Probably 50% of the time models avoid giving me a price after I've explained what I'm after, but that's fine as I'm used to dealing with that. A quick delve into my inbox reveals recent messages from well-known models whose portfolios are top drawer and who are offering shoots for £20 per hour up to nude and even open leg. TBH that paints a worrisome picture of the state of modelling at the moment.

It's also the case that the very best models I've ever worked with, and most experienced photographers would I'm sure agree with me, are not appreciably more expensive to book than the norm.

More than a decade ago when I ran a studio I'd fly in overseas models. Sufficient photographers were willing to pay a premium to shoot a new (to the UK) face they otherwise couldn't afford - but were willing to pay typically £60-£70 per hour even back then. There's some kind of novelty factor which kicks in and encourages some photographers to dip into their pensions.

I think the basic problem which most experienced and capable models have to face when working the modelling sites is that the majority of internet photographers believe they're incapable of utilising those models' skills fully and hence they're not prepared to pay extra for something they believe won't benefit them despite what you say. And others just want to shoot the same thing over-and-over again, just with a new face (or body), and have absolutely no desire for variety or to progress.

Thank you for replying again I really appreciate it. But Wow £20 ph for Open Leg? That's unbelievable, I'm also a photographer and wouldn't dream of paying a model such a low rate for such a high level and it's so sad that models are having to do this to make ends meet. There are photographers out there that will totally take advantage of this though and it will sadly be hard to turn it around should the economic crisis improve as once they have shot such high levels for buttons they are unlikely to want to shoot lesser levels for normal rates.

With reference to your other points yes there are a lot of photographers I have worked with that have lacked self confidence and have said they feel intimidated by experienced models as they worry they won't do them justice which again makes me sad because I love to share my knowledge with lesser experienced photographers and encourage them to push themselves out of their shells. On the other hand I have also worked with people who have absolutely no interest in what I know about photography or lighting but I take it on the chin. 

Thanks again for your input it's been really useful :) x

Huw said

Everly Rose said

Wondrous said

I don't think rates necessarily have anything to do with skills and don't think models in majority relate it to skill because other wise new models wouldn't be trying to get what experienced models are getting and other photographers wouldn't support it. What you get paid and what somoeone pays out is simply about what two people agree to. Of course there's the experience bit, modelling ability etc but it's just an agreement between two people.

Edited by Wondrous

Yes totally, I've seen new models with a handful of selfies asking for extortionate rates and on the other hand there are models with vast experience that will do over and above for stupidly cheap rates. It's so hard to gauge, I know what I am worth but unless you work with me you aren't to know so it's a hard one. I'll try to put it into words in my notes but I don't want to go on too much or come across self centred.

Edited by Everly Rose

OK, here' a different way of thinking about it:

- stop thinking "what I'm worth"

- start thinking "what puts most money into my bank acount at the end of the year".

- be cold blooded about it.

Everly Rose said

...  I did charge £30ph but after speaking with some model friends most of them are charging between 40 and 65ph and thought I was underselling myself for the skills I have. Maybe £30 is a more reasonable hourly home rate?...

A few random thoughts:

If you shoot once a week for two hours at £65, you put £130 in the bank.

If you shoot once a week for eight hours at £25, you put £200 in the bank.

Same job, your skills are the same either way.

***********

I'd suggest trying to get one or two local regulars who will shoot at £25 per hour for 8 hours, once a month.
Two shoots a month a £200 per day puts £400 per month into your bank - or £4,800 per year.

That's your bread and butter money.

Four hours...    £35 per hour.  £140

Two hours...   £45 per hour.  £90.

One hour...  £75.

You want local repeat business.

***************

Then there are the people who book you once, and never again.
Add £5 per hour. £240, £160, £100, £80.

After the shoot, tell them there's a £5 per hour discount for all shoots after the first one (assuming they have been pleasant to shoot with)

**************

When you travel, it needs to be worth it.
Maybe £240 full day and £160 half day. 
Doubt you'll make much with two hour shoots unless it's a studio day you can fill.

***********************

35 years self employed.
I have my "bread and butter clients" who send me a lot of work. I look after them, and they pay less than the others.
I have my "once or twice a year clients". I look after them - they might become "bread and butter clients". They pay at least 20% more.
I have my "once a year when they are desperate" clients. They pay 50% more.
I have my "pain in the arse clients". They can pay twice as much because I don't care if they don't come back.

*******************

I have shot great models who charge £200 per day (probably more like £250 per day since Covid).
Guess what - I shoot with them a lot.
As much as I can fit in with a heavy work load and a lot of other demands on my time. More than teh references suggest, because we don't really bother.

I've also shot one or two great models at £75 per hour. Usually for four hours, and only once.

*******************

Can you trust me? Probably, because I'm not just down the road and trying to get a cheap shoot.

Can you trust other models? Probably, but they are your competitors, not your friends. If you put your rate up so high that they get the work instead....

Thank you for replying, I will take all of that on board.

I do actually charge more when I travel / tour. My daily rate on tour is £160 half day £300 Full day. My rates for studio days on Tour vary depending on the studio costs.

I do offer a discount to shoot at home for 4 hours 6 hours or 8 hours, I also offer free B&B if a photographer is travelling a distance and books me for 2 days.

I did have all of this in my notes but I thought it was too much information overload so I removed that section but on reflection I will add it back in. I did think it may lead to more photographers messaging me to enquire if I didn't have my rates on the bio and lead to more bookings but it's obviously the other way around and photographers prefer to see models rates before they enquire.

Even though I am a photographer myself I didn't think of it that way as I only shoot a few times a year and choose a model I really want to work with and pay them their current rates (within reason, I think the most expensive was £70ph but she was amazing ).

The only thing I hate as A photographer is staggered rates, i.e £20ph for fashion, £30ph for topless. £45ph for nude, How would you work that out if you shot the model for 2 hours and did a hour fashion, 20 minutes topless and 40 minutes nude how do you work out the total cost? That is my only exception when booking a model they have one flat rate that covers up to their highest level.

With the trust comment I have made many friends over the years in the industry. I have 10 very close friends both models and photographers that I trust implicitly, 2 of my best friends are models I met through Purpleport and we are extremely close. These people are the first ones I will go to if I ever need anything and I know they will be completely honest with me.

Thank you for replying again I really appreciate it. But Wow £20 ph for Open Leg? That's unbelievable, I'm also a photographer and wouldn't dream of paying a model such a low rate for such a high level and it's so sad that models are having to do this to make ends meet. There are photographers out there that will totally take advantage of this though and it will sadly be hard to turn it around should the economic crisis improve as once they have shot such high levels for buttons they are unlikely to want to shoot lesser levels for normal rates.

With reference to your other points yes there are a lot of photographers I have worked with that have lacked self confidence and have said they feel intimidated by experienced models as they worry they won't do them justice which again makes me sad because I love to share my knowledge with lesser experienced photographers and encourage them to push themselves out of their shells. On the other hand I have also worked with people who have absolutely no interest in what I know about photography or lighting but I take it on the chin. 

Thanks again for your input it's been really useful :) x

TBH I'm inclined to think it's a ploy to tease out some bookings, hoping or expecting the photographer will pay better than that. Perhaps there's an opportunity to cherry pick according to the kind of response the photographer provides. But even if it's a marketing ploy it's still a worrisome indicator of the current state of affairs I think.

We’re working with 6 models between May and June in distant lands and the hourly rate is €25 per hour for each model. All Modelling up to lingerie. (Rates set by the models) So your rates are reasonable, you’re a highly accomplished skilled model so the only conclusion is that the temporary lack of bookings is due to the current economic climate. What else can it be, time of year maybe, it’s still pretty raw out there and folk are holding out for favourable weather?

I’m sure it will pick up for you in the fullness of time.

Everly Rose .  
The “trust” comments….   Not entirely serious, but I do have friends in my business who are very definitely competitors, and I would not totally believe their pricing if they told me.  Other friends, I would believe.

The 5 no shows would stop me contacting a model frankly! Sorry admin if this comment isn’t allowed.

Even if you were down south it would be somewhere like London and I’d still need to travel up from my location and probably pay to book a location to shoot at. An investment I can’t afford to risk on a model who no shows. Imagine if I’d I paid for a location only for the model to no show or cancel last min? I’m then stuck extremely short notice having lost money on a studio and it’s too late to book someone decent to shoot at the studio instead! For this reason I skip model profiles who have late cancellations or no shows, doesn’t matter how great their portfolios may look!

This isn’t a personal attack though, just an answer to explain what would stop me booking a model!

The lack of rates mentioned on the profile wouldn’t necessarily put me off, but while messaging asking about them, I would suspect that they would be abnormally high and that’s why they’re hidden. An assumption probably a lot of photographers on here might make? So that’s not a dealbreaker for me, depending on what they come back as, however, LOL

There are a lot of models I would love to shoot with who sometimes tour down south. The setback for me is they usually don’t book a location they can shoot at which isn’t a criticism, but it does mean I’m then scouting around looking for a location at an additional cost, which sadly I can’t stretch to at the moment. But if a model who is touring down this way, find a place to stay, that’s great to shoot at as well. I’m probably going to be more likely to book her than if she didn’t book such a location if that makes sense? There are a couple of models ive messaged who were touring they didn’t have a location to shoot at and that was the one dealbreaker for me in those instances

Hope my answers helped in some way