To Pay or Not to Pay, that is the question
Unfocussed Mike said, 1726778244
TheEgg said
I appreciate there are many fantastic, professionals (in every sense of the word), who work exclusively for pay and I pay them the due courtesy of not offering them a collab, however there are both models and togs with basic skills who seem to think they can charge (this is mainly models but I have heard of togs with a point and shoot or even phone camera who think they are a resurrected Ansell Adams or David Bailey).
Anyone is free to charge, so they are free to think they can charge. They are all equally free not to get any custom, which is on average the most likely outcome.
Not sure I understood the point of the rest of your comment.
Huw said, 1726778666
Ansel Adams was a working professional at a time when the standard camera was large format - 5"x4" or 10"x8".
Nothing elitist about that.
He was also a concert pianist, and brought much of what he had learnt from music to understanding and teaching photography.
Scales (music) to Zones (photography), and the importance of practice and plain hard work to develop consistency as an artist.
His three books ("The camera", "the negative", and "the print") were the basis of most people's technical education in BW film photography:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Photo-Camera-Ansel-Adams/dp/0821221841/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3T995OPO7VA9E&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.DNGz6G5VcV-zqNv2vjI8RVlZX9SXUiaOtNDO01SFX4r78Mp4yvtKCODIfIMSCV5BEgx2K5kroj0kjTKODo8bcq60jx9j1_DHKUMzspjMiaC8FHtDSvBLk1LL0b0HzkJximzn63IEsTXBIoC1R-YVoC-O68E3ZjBhhvyit3oC9PEwGVFTPz5pkkMRVctPyEpxG2pJTSKw_p7OfNFcDjyDyh9F4_8DtQ-Ram-plOLFCrk.D4ameLqsSHydkU-T5elTr28JIfKeLNtcNviy1nQ7Pos&dib_tag=se&keywords=ansel+adams+the+negative&qid=1726778328&sprefix=ansel+adams%2Caps%2C127&sr=8-3
Somewhat odd to wax lyrical about the "good old days" without having learnt from the basic texts.
ADWsPhotos said, 1726779157
Hopefully Iāll simply be ignored, but otherwise Iām happy to be the focus of derision for suggesting that the original post lacked anything new that the site forum has been through over and over. Please understand thatās not to say that the same core idea doesnāt have mileage over and over. Just a bit surprised that we old hands (note we) get dragged in over and over.
As you were ā¦.
Unfocussed Mike said, 1726780031
Huw said
Ansel Adams was a working professional at a time when the standard camera was large format - 5"x4" or 10"x8".
Nothing elitist about that.
I was going to say this, too -- Adams possibly had somewhat spendy kit, perhaps (his smaller format cameras seem to have been disproportionately more expensive, relatively speaking, than his larger format cameras) but little he did was rarified in terms of technology; it was relatively commonplace. His main 5x4 seems to have been a Deardorff, which was the sort of thing loads of jobbing photographers used. Proportionately about as expensive as a Z8, I figure.
He was surrounded by an absolute explosion of landscape and journalistic photographers working around the edges of institutions like the Federal Theatre Project, the Farm Security Administration and the US Military, using much the same sort of kit, and it's happening at the same time as US cameras were the envy of the world in terms of price/performance. Darkrooms were absolutely everywhere, too. I suspect his own darkroom was relatively modest.
And yet he still essentially defined the language of the monochrome landscape, despite competition from the likes of Edward Weston. Consider the difference between Adams and, say, Carleton Watkins, who was the famous photographer Adams would have grown up aware of.
Edited by Unfocussed Mike
Unfocussed Mike said, 1726779768
ADWsPhotos said
Hopefully Iāll simply be ignored, but otherwise Iām happy to be the focus of derision for suggesting that the original post lacked anything new that the site forum has been through over and over. Please understand thatās not to say that the same core idea doesnāt have mileage over and over. Just a bit surprised that we old hands (note we) get dragged in over and over.
Indeed! It's 2004 in the groups at the moment generally though :-)
Edited by Unfocussed Mike
Huw said, 1726782263
Of course, without a working knowledge of the Zone system, one ends up dragging flash out into the countryside to ācontrolā the light on a model shoot.
;)
indemnity said, 1726783297
Huw said
Zone system is still relevant today if you want to know exactly how a shot will print at the time you take it....
It's just called a histogram now.
Having gamma output correct on monitor helps avoid cock ups when printing too after capture, a very common mistake. Field monitor is handy as exposure can be seen in colour zones at point of capture, on bright days when camera display can't be seen too clearly it can be very helpful.
TheEgg said, 1726821240
AshleyAshton said
I think maybe because you've achieved paid assignments in the past,you've approached the network with the expectation that models will throw themselves at you for TF work....
Maybe just like category 2, you define yourself as special.. in a very similar manner....and as you mentioned, have invested in equipment to do so.
Category "1" models (in your definition) appreciate and understand the importance of a good portfolio.. therfore will seek and reap the benefits of outstanding images from TF work...
Investing in good equipment is only half the journey. An investment shooting good models will:
-get your images showcased by a broader audience
- get you better images
-get you more TF work.
New " pretty" unexperienced models also have a lot of value. Despite their inexperience, they are still a new face in the network. So are sometimes as equally in demand.
Kind regards
Ashley
Edited by AshleyAshton
Thanks for your contribution. I certainly donāt expect anyone to throw themselves at me. Iām more than well aware that there are far superior photographers to me who deserve (and can expect) to be in demand both on a paid and TF basis, however my clumsy attempt at trying to be inoffensive has probably led down a rabbit hole I didnāt want to visit.
The main point of my piece was that I think some models consider themselves the finished article and able to command the going rate far more accomplished workers are charging. Photographers will always factor value into any financial equation and will likely opt to work with an experienced, expressive model rather than the pursed lipped, dead stare, clenched paw, straight, slumped, novice. I was suggesting the best way for these models to progress their career is to gain experience with experienced photographers who might help them improve their skills.
Instead they steadfastly refuse to budge on the principle of pay, which is their prerogative, and as such often fall out of the industry disillusioned.
I paid models to gain experience and I still donāt consider myself anything like the finished article but Iām suggesting working for nothing (or expenses) to improve might be more productive in the long run.
AshleyAshton said, 1726821786
"Instead they steadfastly refuse to budge on the principle of pay, which is their prerogative, and as such often fall out of the industry disillusioned."
This isn't a bad thing, some must learn the hard way.
TheEgg said, 1726825035
Thanks for all your inputs both positive and negative. Iāve learned a lot of lessons. It pays not to have a viewpoint but my viewpoints are TF and youāre welcome.
Iāll be crawling back under my stone.
Ps I didnāt say Bailey was dead, I said resurrect Adams although you might say youād be resurrecting Baileyās career which has been somewhat out of the general public eye for quite some time.
I must be extremely dim because I managed to fire the main point of my post way over the heads of many, which was that.
All models are entitled to ask for pay as are all photographers, we all have outlays and it would be nice to recoup some of this, however many models insist upon working for pay when their experience and portfolio quality lets them down. They often have the same bland, pursed lipped expression, poor posture/body awareness and far too many selfies to warrant. They could learn by doing a bit more TF with excellent photographers (I specifically excluded myself from this category) who could guide and mentor.
Iām fortunate enough to work with an increasing number of models on a TF basis so this wasnāt a rant suggesting I couldnāt get collaborators, more of a suggestion to help them along the way and enjoy the process at the same time.
Thanks for the history lesson re Ansell. I didnāt see the point but I am richer for having had your knowledge imparted.
indemnity said, 1726825770
TheEgg I think there are a few points here some might take on board, others will ignore and that goes for both photographers and models. TF can make or break a model in her early days, likewise some photographers abuse the privilege of TF arrangements. We have a large quantity of hobbyist photographers trying to fulfil their dreams and models looking to develop their skills and create a fluid income from the situation. It's all a balancing act with a range of competency from both parties and each individual is different.
TheEgg said, 1726826930
indemnity said
TheEgg I think there are a few points here some might take on board, others will ignore and that goes for both photographers and models. TF can make or break a model in her early days, likewise some photographers abuse the privilege of TF arrangements. We have a large quantity of hobbyist photographers trying to fulfil their dreams and models looking to develop their skills and create a fluid income from the situation. It's all a balancing act with a range of competency from both parties and each individual is different.
Thank you for a nice, balanced viewpoint.
Says it all nice and succinctly I reckon
TedBancroftPortraits said, 1726841464
indemnity - If I have read it right, he does not want to pay the models.