Just disgusting, why would you want to do this?

What they are doing is not hunting, nothing of the sort. 

Being driven into the countryside, park, safari park, reserve or whatever it is, in a vehicle that gives you nigh on 100% protection, calmly seeking out a lion, or a pride of lions, then taking a modern rifle, take careful aim at the animal who is absolutely unaware of your intention, then firing, killing, or nearly killing the poor victim, possibly causing it great pain for however long the fatal injury has caused, maybe taking a second shot to finish the job, is NOT hunting, it's the organised assassination of a wild animal.

If it was hunting, there would at least be some form of competition so the animal being hunted has a chance of escape, even if a narrow one.  The event described above is far from this, the lions are almost used to human presence and are likely to see them as no threat which means the word hunting is inaccurate.  If the "hunter" set out on foot, tracked the victim, stalked him, then it might be seen as hunting, but even then, the gun gives the hunter a huge advantage, I still don't see it as hunting.  If these rich twats want to go and hunt a lion, then they should feel free to do so, go on foot, alone, take a spear and a knife and then hunt the victim.  That would be hunting in my book. 

Emotionally, yeah, I'd throw the lot of them to the pack, fuck 'em.  However, as has been said, conservation is important, management is important, but if it is necessary to cull a few animals now, then that can be done by  a ranger, which used to happen here in the UK, not sure if it still is, the Forestry Commission used to have to cull deer now and then.   The trouble is, a ranger doing it wouldn't raise the money to finance the conservation work they do, so, until all us outraged people create a fund to finance said conservation, with the guarantee that no more do they sell the assassination of the animals, then it will continue, as it does, day in, day out, but we hear nothing until it's a big story. 

So, one day, we might see ads on the TV, give £2 a month to stop the hunting in Africa, until then,  we'll see this sort of thing now occasionally. 

The original question, why would anyone want to shoot such a beautiful creature? I don't know, I certainly would not unless its was attacking someone. But then I live a very pleasant and urbanised life and if I want a nice juicy steak or a rack of lamb, I just pop down to Waitrose and its all sanitised and pre-packed and all I have to do it pop it in my basket.

However, the problem here is that very few people understand the principles of conservation and/or helping with natural selection or food production.

Would I shoot animals for food? Absolutely. I choose not to kill animals, because I don't want to and don't need to, but I eat meat and so do many others. I was raised on a farm and have killed animals for food in the past (and foxes to protect livestock) I have now become urbanised so have no need or reason to kill anything. I even humanely trap the mice in the house and release them outside. 

Lets compare this to Deer stalking in Scotland. The principle is to manage the herd as there are no natural preditors because man has wiped them out.

The "bread and butter" culling of the female animals, essential to control numbers is done by a Professional stalker, because there is little commercial demand due to the fact females are not seen as trophies and the season for females coincides with the worst Highland weather and very few people want to pay to brave it. The "trophy" stags finance this and the general principle is that you do not kill young stags with potential or the very best stags at their peak, what happens is that the stalker knows his herd and will judge when the best stags have peaked, passed on their genes and are beginning to fade. They are still majestic enough to attract a good price from hunters though.

I guess...(and it is a guess because I have no knowledge of Lion management) Lions are managed in the same way. The game warden will know the pride and will know which animal has served its purpose and can be selected for culling while still attractive enough to get a good price from a hunter.

Unpalatable...to me and other cossetted and urbanised individuals, yes. To the people managing the reserve? Just part of the circle of life.  

Edited by IainT

mph said

Znapps said

mph said

Whilst finding it as unpleasant as most, this lion was killed legally and the income from hunting pays 70% of the costs of conservation and poaching control in Zimbabwe.

Nothing is simple in this world. :(

Sadly very true when you can't feed your family you kill wild animals to feed them. I so wish it was not the case. I have spent many years in Africa and a native once told me a leopard skin could feed his family for a year. I never know what to say to this because it's largely the fault of illegal poachers and the government.

And large  carnivores inspire opposition to conservation efforts owing to their impact on livestock and human safety.  In Tanzania, which has the largest population of lions in Africa, they killed more than 563 Tanzanians between 1990 and 2005 and injured at least 308. Attacks have increased dramatically: they peak at harvest time each year and are most frequent in areas with few prey apart from bush pigs (Potamochoerus larvatus), the most common nocturnal crop pest. 

That is nothing compared to around 2,900 people killed by hippos annually. Sadly these animals too are now facing extinction from man, but this is going largely unnoticed as they don't have the appeal of the big cats. :(
Mankind is such a nasty destructive race :(

If you go to the link you cannot fail to see the link to the story of a 10 year old girl killed by a lion as she went to the toilet at night... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-40656863 as much as "we" in the western world might find it unpalatable the hunting of animals has to take place... conservation, husbandry and protection. IF along the way during the course of that paid hunts take place then what is the issue IF that money goes back into the system and stops poaching and improves herds... You don't have to go to Africa... it happens with deer herds in the UK that do need controlling to levels where populations are manageable and kept healthy... why? Because we don't have natural predators... like wolves, bears and pumas anymore... 

Sadly the majority of  "us" reading the thread live in a sanitised society happy to eat food stuffed with chemicals and hormones packed in poisonous plastics.  

IainT said

The original question, why would anyone want to shoot such a beautiful creature? I don't know, I certainly would not unless its was attacking someone. But then I live a very pleasant and urbanised life and if I want a nice juicy steak or a rack of lamb, I just pop down to Waitrose and its all sanitised and pre-packed and all I have to do it pop it in my basket.

However, the problem here is that very few people understand the principles of conservation and/or helping with natural selection or food production.

Would I shoot animals for food? Absolutely. I choose not to kill animals, because I don't want to and don't need to, but I eat meat and so do many others. I was raised on a farm and have killed animals for food in the past (and foxes to protect livestock) I have now become urbanised so have no need or reason to kill anything. I even humanely trap the mice in the house and release them outside. 

Lets compare this to Deer stalking in Scotland. The principle is to manage the herd as there are no natural preditors because man has wiped them out.

The "bread and butter" culling of the female animals, essential to control numbers is done by a Professional stalker, because there is little commercial demand due to the fact females are not seen as trophies and the season for females coincides with the worst Highland weather and very few people want to pay to brave it. The "trophy" stags finance this and the general principle is that you do not kill young stags with potential or the very best stags at their peak, what happens is that the stalker knows his herd and will judge when the best stags have peaked, passed on their genes and are beginning to fade. They are still majestic enough to attract a good price from hunters though.

I guess...(and it is a guess because I have no knowledge of Lion management) Lions are managed in the same way. The game warden will know the pride and will know which animal has served its purpose and can be selected for culling while still attractive enough to get a good price from a hunter.

Unpalatable...to me and other cossetted and urbanised individuals, yes. To the people managing the reserve? Just part of the circle of life.  

Edited by IainT

cross posted with Iain... I led a similar younger life brought up in the countryside... 

I can't stand this whole hunting/poaching/killing for sport thing.

I don't get it. I don't like it. I don't think any of it should be legal.

Often very Inhumane and cruel. No need for it. Got no time for it.

David Edwards said

If you go to the link you cannot fail to see the link to the story of a 10 year old girl killed by a lion as she went to the toilet at night... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-40656863 as much as "we" in the western world might find it unpalatable the hunting of animals has to take place... conservation, husbandry and protection. IF along the way during the course of that paid hunts take place then what is the issue IF that money goes back into the system and stops poaching and improves herds... You don't have to go to Africa... it happens with deer herds in the UK that do need controlling to levels where populations are manageable and kept healthy... why? Because we don't have natural predators... like wolves, bears and pumas anymore... 

Sadly the majority of  "us" reading the thread live in a sanitised society happy to eat food stuffed with chemicals and hormones packed in poisonous plastics.  

There was report about the super farms in the UK that keep hundreds of thousands of livestock animals in unnatural conditions. They are born, live and die in those conditions, and the sole purpose is to give us cheap meat. If we really cared about animal welfare we would be addressing our own behaviour before worrying about photogenic creatures being hunted for sport abroad.

TimG said

David Edwards said

If you go to the link you cannot fail to see the link to the story of a 10 year old girl killed by a lion as she went to the toilet at night... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-40656863 as much as "we" in the western world might find it unpalatable the hunting of animals has to take place... conservation, husbandry and protection. IF along the way during the course of that paid hunts take place then what is the issue IF that money goes back into the system and stops poaching and improves herds... You don't have to go to Africa... it happens with deer herds in the UK that do need controlling to levels where populations are manageable and kept healthy... why? Because we don't have natural predators... like wolves, bears and pumas anymore... 

Sadly the majority of  "us" reading the thread live in a sanitised society happy to eat food stuffed with chemicals and hormones packed in poisonous plastics.  

There was report about the super farms in the UK that keep hundreds of thousands of livestock animals in unnatural conditions. They are born, live and die in those conditions, and the sole purpose is to give us cheap meat. If we really cared about animal welfare we would be addressing our own behaviour before worrying about photogenic creatures being hunted for sport abroad.

Which is why I for one will always buy free range meat. Does anyone seriously think that the cows and sheep they see in the field would be there if it were not for meat production. So the questions, if you were a cow, would you rather have a short pleasant life or no life at all. For free range I am sure it is the former, for the latter I am no so sure.  

Jay Scott said

I can't stand this whole hunting/poaching/killing for sport thing.

I don't get it. I don't like it. I don't think any of it should be legal.

Often very Inhumane and cruel. No need for it. Got no time for it.

And if the reduction in the income for conservation that would result from your ban, led to a bigger reduction in the lion population than that caused by hunting would you still ban it?

TimG said

David Edwards said

If you go to the link you cannot fail to see the link to the story of a 10 year old girl killed by a lion as she went to the toilet at night... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-40656863 as much as "we" in the western world might find it unpalatable the hunting of animals has to take place... conservation, husbandry and protection. IF along the way during the course of that paid hunts take place then what is the issue IF that money goes back into the system and stops poaching and improves herds... You don't have to go to Africa... it happens with deer herds in the UK that do need controlling to levels where populations are manageable and kept healthy... why? Because we don't have natural predators... like wolves, bears and pumas anymore... 

Sadly the majority of  "us" reading the thread live in a sanitised society happy to eat food stuffed with chemicals and hormones packed in poisonous plastics.  

There was report about the super farms in the UK that keep hundreds of thousands of livestock animals in unnatural conditions. They are born, live and die in those conditions, and the sole purpose is to give us cheap meat. If we really cared about animal welfare we would be addressing our own behaviour before worrying about photogenic creatures being hunted for sport abroad.

There we have it. Most people do not actually care about animals, or if the do, then only when it suits them or when they see something cuddly or flash being killed. 

Discussions on animal welfare are invariably an excercise in hypocrisy 

If people really cared they would become vegetarians or only buy very expensive certified ethically produced meat and chicken.

DDT said

TimG said

David Edwards said

If you go to the link you cannot fail to see the link to the story of a 10 year old girl killed by a lion as she went to the toilet at night... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-40656863 as much as "we" in the western world might find it unpalatable the hunting of animals has to take place... conservation, husbandry and protection. IF along the way during the course of that paid hunts take place then what is the issue IF that money goes back into the system and stops poaching and improves herds... You don't have to go to Africa... it happens with deer herds in the UK that do need controlling to levels where populations are manageable and kept healthy... why? Because we don't have natural predators... like wolves, bears and pumas anymore... 

Sadly the majority of  "us" reading the thread live in a sanitised society happy to eat food stuffed with chemicals and hormones packed in poisonous plastics.  

There was report about the super farms in the UK that keep hundreds of thousands of livestock animals in unnatural conditions. They are born, live and die in those conditions, and the sole purpose is to give us cheap meat. If we really cared about animal welfare we would be addressing our own behaviour before worrying about photogenic creatures being hunted for sport abroad.

Which is why I for one will always buy free range meat. Does anyone seriously think that the cows and sheep they see in the field would be there if it were not for meat production. So the questions, if you were a cow, would you rather have a short pleasant life or no life at all. For free range I am sure it is the former, for the latter I am no so sure.  

IainT said

TimG said

David Edwards said

If you go to the link you cannot fail to see the link to the story of a 10 year old girl killed by a lion as she went to the toilet at night... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-40656863 as much as "we" in the western world might find it unpalatable the hunting of animals has to take place... conservation, husbandry and protection. IF along the way during the course of that paid hunts take place then what is the issue IF that money goes back into the system and stops poaching and improves herds... You don't have to go to Africa... it happens with deer herds in the UK that do need controlling to levels where populations are manageable and kept healthy... why? Because we don't have natural predators... like wolves, bears and pumas anymore... 

Sadly the majority of  "us" reading the thread live in a sanitised society happy to eat food stuffed with chemicals and hormones packed in poisonous plastics.  

There was report about the super farms in the UK that keep hundreds of thousands of livestock animals in unnatural conditions. They are born, live and die in those conditions, and the sole purpose is to give us cheap meat. If we really cared about animal welfare we would be addressing our own behaviour before worrying about photogenic creatures being hunted for sport abroad.

There we have it. Most people do not actually care about animals, or if the do, then only when it suits them or when they see something cuddly or flash being killed. 

Discussions on animal welfare are invariably an excercise in hypocrisy 

If people really cared they would become vegetarians or only buy very expensive certified ethically produced meat and chicken.

In the dim distant past I used to take the air rifle out and it worked out at 0.5p for a rabbit or a pigeon... a shotgun cartridge was 6p so a meal for two worked out at 1p or 12p depending on what I used... I have neither now. I used to go out with a long dog for rabbits or the odd hare. Add the end of the game season I used to take a number of pheasants off a local game keeper and buy venison stew packs... I used to buy half a lamb off a farming mate that was rejected for being to lean or too fatty for the meat market. I do none of that now... I still fish and take the odd fish for the pot.

My now middle class suburban life has robbed me of all my healthy free range food - food that I took at levels which didn't damage populations and were harvested only at the right times of year. Food which was totally free range and the majority wild... that fed me at the time I had little money. 

A world away from sport hunting I know... 

Food for thought... (excuse the pun) How many buy salmon from the supermarket? How many know that current fish farming processes put not only wild Atlantic salmon stocks at risk but also human health? 

This happens to all animals all over the world.

It shouldn't, but it does.

David Edwards said

Food for thought... (excuse the pun) How many buy salmon from the supermarket? How many know that current fish farming processes put not only wild Atlantic salmon stocks at risk but also human health? 

Having dived a couple of the wrecks out of Oban, just downstream from the fish farms, I would not more touch farmed salmon than fly to the moon. Added to which, the farmers then take to shooting seals which know an easy meal when they see one. 

Colin Adams said

Let's just shoot animals with our cameras?

Agreed

It's quite unacceptable and about time a body with TEETH was formed akin to the United Nations to protect the planets' resources regardless of perceived title by individual countries. Wildlife conservation is one big mess. Kenya banned all hunting; neighbouring Tanzania permits it. Year on year magnificent tuskers disappear from Amboseli National Park in Kenya because being migratory they wander into Tanzania where they're legally shot! Here we express concern for our disappearing cuckoo's & turtle doves, while they're being shot as they fly over Malta and Cypress on their way to their summer breeding grounds. I find it hard to believe that it's necessary for hunting to pay for conservation & wildlife protection. Kenya does fine without it and India has been expressing the message that tourism brings in more money than hunting ever can for as long as I can remember. Lions should actually be given protection status. They are indeed endangered and under threat but that message doesn't seem to have reached out to enough people. The greatest threat to lions in Kenya would appear to be encroaching mankind and being poisoned or speared by the locals, - cattle farmers etc. But for someone to set out on holiday with the express intention to shoot one, - well, sick sick SICK, akin to a child murderer or a sex pervert imo.