Am I living in a parallel universe?

Chris Green said

A lot of the negativity on other threads seems to boil down to photographers not being willing to pay relatively modest hourly rates or not being willing to cover disbursements. Another common theme is complaining that models won’t work pro bono (also known as “TF”).

I'm sorry Chris, but TFP is absolutely NOT the same as pro bono (free). Indeed, IMHO, this is the distinction that those who repeatedly moan about lack of TF fail to understand.

TFP is an equitable and time-honoured arrangement between photographer and model that dates back almost as far as photography itself. Except for the increasingly rare occasions when I have a paying client, I've been shooting TF since before Sir Tim invented the worldwide web - and literally decades before Purpleport was created. There is still sufficient TF around, certainly for my needs, if one knows where to look. 

The key is to listen-to and incorporate one's model's creative needs as well as one's own. In my experience, this almost invariably means allowing one's models to keep some clothes on. Indeed, we maintain quite a large collection of vintage outfits and props for this very purpose. A nice, comfy, easily accessible studio with separate changing helps too, I think. In any event, I love the whole TF vibe. It suits me and those with whom I work, and dovetails nicely with genre(s) I prefer to shoot.

YMMV, of course. :-)

JME Studios said

I've resisted, until now, the urge to take the bait from this thread.

But because I'm stepping back in the New Year I feel I've not much left to lose.

Here's how I see it.

There are two different PPs.

The most active on here can afford to spend eye-watering amounts of cash on the top names and virtually guarantee themselves an FPI in the process. Do those models deliver? Yes. Are their Comms timely and professional? Hell yes. Do they get on with the job when on the shoot? In terms of the names bandied around that I've shot with, absolutely 100% no notes from my end.

But not everyone has the budget to do that regularly. And since 2022/3 the majority of us have just been priced out of that market.

The rest of us just want to shoot what we like. For me that is a style that, yes I admit, is rapidly going out of fashion. But the models who want to shoot that style now want to self shoot for OF.

I'm not interested in either fashion or Naked Chicks On Rocks.

So we are where we are.

I don’t see two different PPs, there is a wide spectrum of how people shoot.  There are some people who can afford the high price events with a range down to those who are being priced out of the market. I feel I am somewhere in the middle.

In my early days here I could book a 4 hour shoot for £170 (studio for £50 and a top model for £120), and would be shooting once a month.  The same model and studio would now cost me £320, which I cannot afford.  So I don’t dispute that it isn’t as affordable as it used to be.  However, I know golfers, football fans and people with other hobbies who are seeing price rises that are making their hobbies less affordable (without going into politics - this is the result of the cost of living increases)

All this meant for me was that to carry on doing a hobby I love, I had to change the way I approach model photography.  I now do fewer shoots, but save up to ensure I can shoot with good models at good locations / studios.  I still shoot what I like, but less frequently.

With regards to OF, I think the ability for models to earn money from OF is a good thing.  It allows them to have more control over what shoots they want to do and with whom, as they aren’t desperate for money and therefore increases their safety.

The flip side is it could reduce the market for photographers who want to shoot a certain style

Afrofilmviewer said

gjp "Also I think each side finds the other sides statements jarring, as they don’t recognise what is being said"

Well it's like the FPI chat and similar. A person will mention frustration from not receiving any, only to be told by folk with tons not to worry because they themselves don't.

I get it. And I see why it can be an annoyance. I've had to place any of more elaborate ideas to the wayside after being let down by the things you mentioned earlier. Flakiness, bad comms, etc.

Anything more basic/minimal? It happens and the shoots are cool.

It's not as all or nothing as it can come across here. But I remember dropping alot of money (to me) on studio hire a couple of times only for people not to turn up. And to pretend it doesn't happen to people...I don't feel is a great thing.

I am sorry to hear that you got let down for your more elaborate shoots, and this post was not meant to imply this doesn’t happen, as it most definitely does.

Reading the forums I feel at times there is too much emphasis on the bad, and not enough positive talk - I know bad news sells - and this post was written trying to say, for me, things aren’t as bad as the forums would have us believe 

JME Studios said

I've resisted, until now, the urge to take the bait from this thread.

But because I'm stepping back in the New Year I feel I've not much left to lose.

Here's how I see it.

There are two different PPs.

The most active on here can afford to spend eye-watering amounts of cash on the top names and virtually guarantee themselves an FPI in the process. Do those models deliver? Yes. Are their Comms timely and professional? Hell yes. Do they get on with the job when on the shoot? In terms of the names bandied around that I've shot with, absolutely 100% no notes from my end.

But not everyone has the budget to do that regularly. And since 2022/3 the majority of us have just been priced out of that market.

The rest of us just want to shoot what we like. For me that is a style that, yes I admit, is rapidly going out of fashion. But the models who want to shoot that style now want to self shoot for OF.

I'm not interested in either fashion or Naked Chicks On Rocks.

So we are where we are.

Judging by the "Recent Images" feed, the majority have actually just been quietly getting on with their photography and avoiding the drama of the forums.

Assuming it's somehow all about money is a mistake, IMHO - ClickMore 📷 gave a good summary in his post above.

gjp

Ah. It's fine. 🙂

There's a few photographers here that I'm genuinely happy for when I see their work and that they had the chance to do it. With yourself being one of them.

I definitely get where you're coming from. It can get very sour. There is an emphasis on bad because yes bad news sells. But also it's binding.

I think problem is that the niggly bad news is more relatable to a broader scope of people. So it correlates and feels like a larger problem.

Of the positive stories, not everyone can achieve what those people achieve. For various reasons.

However, being let down late in the day by the other party when you say already booked a studio, or to be ghosted by someone when booking a shoot. It's easier to happen to more people.

And there's less questions to ask when something goes well. 🤣

I wonder if it's a question of things being more difficult when you get started.

When I first took up model photography, I joined PP but it took me a while to understand how things worked. I contacted a lot of models and didn't get replies. I had one model who agreed all the terms of the shoot and then announced she 'wasn't comfortable' and we'd have to do things a different way that would cost more money. I had another model, or at least someone behind a model account, try to scam me over a deposit although they retruned it when admin stepped in.

Now I'm a lot less naive and perhaps more importantly, I know several models I can drop a line to and set up a shoot with minimal fuss. Some I pay, some charge me substantially below market rates and some are collaborations. I do occasionally try to set up a shoot with a new model and if it happens, that's great. If it doesn't, no great loss. If there's any red flags in the comms, I'll shrug my shoulders and message a model I already know.

I do have the big advantage of living in London, where there are a lot of models within fairly easy striking distance. I can see it would be more difficult in a less densely populated part of the country.

So I do have some sympathy for photographers who are getting frustrated in the wroking it out stage. Though I don't think moaning about models on forums is much of a solution.

David JC said

I wonder if it's a question of things being more difficult when you get started.

When I first took up model photography, I joined PP but it took me a while to understand how things worked. I contacted a lot of models and didn't get replies. I had one model who agreed all the terms of the shoot and then announced she 'wasn't comfortable' and we'd have to do things a different way that would cost more money. I had another model, or at least someone behind a model account, try to scam me over a deposit although they retruned it when admin stepped in.

Now I'm a lot less naive and perhaps more importantly, I know several models I can drop a line to and set up a shoot with minimal fuss. Some I pay, some charge me substantially below market rates and some are collaborations. I do occasionally try to set up a shoot with a new model and if it happens, that's great. If it doesn't, no great loss. If there's any red flags in the comms, I'll shrug my shoulders and message a model I already know.

I do have the big advantage of living in London, where there are a lot of models within fairly easy striking distance. I can see it would be more difficult in a less densely populated part of the country.

So I do have some sympathy for photographers who are getting frustrated in the wroking it out stage. Though I don't think moaning about models on forums is much of a solution.

Certainly experience counts for a lot in this game. I would add that whilst PP is a useful and well-organised site that has proven very helpful in finding models, it is not the only proverbial 'game in town'. For example, some of my finest models have emerged simply by asking people I know, friends of friends, and people I meet in the course of my daily business, if they would care to model for me.

As I said in an earlier post, my model photography dates back to before the worldwide web was invented - and decades before PP came along. This was a time when there were no modelling sites, and no structure upon which I could base my modus operandi. So, I decided back in the early 1990's that I needed a properly documented procedure for organising my shoots. This has developed and grown over the years to suit changing circumstances. After discussing it with my wife, I decided to formally document and publish this back in 2016.

Several reasons for doing so. Firstly, I thought models and those close to them would benefit from knowing how we do things here. Secondly I thought it might help other photographers develop procedures of their own, and hopefully avoid some of the pitfalls. In any event, it's helps us dodge a few bullets over the years. It's cost nothing to create - other than a little of my time. And it has made shooting a much more pleasant and productive experience...

• https://waist.it/about/organising-a-first-time-shoot/

FWIW, we also have a properly documented chaperone policy too...

• https://waist.it/about/chaperone-policy/

HTH. :-)

waist.it said

David JC said

I wonder if it's a question of things being more difficult when you get started.

When I first took up model photography, I joined PP but it took me a while to understand how things worked. I contacted a lot of models and didn't get replies. I had one model who agreed all the terms of the shoot and then announced she 'wasn't comfortable' and we'd have to do things a different way that would cost more money. I had another model, or at least someone behind a model account, try to scam me over a deposit although they retruned it when admin stepped in.

Now I'm a lot less naive and perhaps more importantly, I know several models I can drop a line to and set up a shoot with minimal fuss. Some I pay, some charge me substantially below market rates and some are collaborations. I do occasionally try to set up a shoot with a new model and if it happens, that's great. If it doesn't, no great loss. If there's any red flags in the comms, I'll shrug my shoulders and message a model I already know.

I do have the big advantage of living in London, where there are a lot of models within fairly easy striking distance. I can see it would be more difficult in a less densely populated part of the country.

So I do have some sympathy for photographers who are getting frustrated in the wroking it out stage. Though I don't think moaning about models on forums is much of a solution.

Certainly experience counts for a lot in this game.

I think that's it really. There's a certain amount of admin involved on top of the photography and it takes a certain amount of trial and error to work out an MO. Some people are evidently getting frustrated by the process.

Afrofilmviewer said

gjp

I guess there's doom and gloom because not everyone can afford £350+ a shoot? Or go on model experience holidays?

Because those who have it good and usually off shooting?

Maybe some folk don't have the resources to aid with things such as editing?

From a personal standpoint I think my shoots have been great. I love where my work is and where it may go.

But I definitely have empathy with those having a tough time. My recent casting got little takers and recent communication with models on here has been shocking. I find the positive count balance sometimes...jarring.

"It's not happening to me so I don't see the fuss!"

I think sometimes it all depends. On here I've always felt I'm fighting against folk in a privileged position. That said I also feel I make it work.

Not wishing to pick a cyber-scrap with you, sir, but where does this £350+ per shoot come from? I've never, ever paid anything like that for a day's shooting - and I'm pretty sure that a lot of other folk on here pay a helluva lot less than that as well. 

Privileged position? Not when one's sole income is a basic state pension. Definitely not. But as my paid shoots cost a helluva lot less than £350, I can still afford to do some. 

[£350 - that's about what my camera cost when I bought it about 12 years ago. That's still my biggest one-time expenditure on this hobby.] 

Edited by Orson Carter

Mmmm....   a shoot can cost me £350 for a day, including travel, because I live so far away.

So I shoot about twice a year.

No complaints - just a factor of the type of shoots I do and where I live.

Huw said

Mmmm....   a shoot can cost me £350 for a day, including travel, because I live so far away.

So I shoot about twice a year.

No complaints - just a factor of the type of shoots I do and where I live.

Couldn't you chop your present helicopter in for a more economical one?

:)

Orson Carter

No scrapping at all, Orson.

Yeah. Some of my paid shoots have reached that. This is all dependent on a heap of variables.

It's why I can't book anyone north of Watford or south of Reading. 😂

Orson Carter

I'd also suggest that a privileged position may not just be based on income.

Apologies for veering off topic on what is a nice upbeat thread, folks. 

To reiterate my first comment on this thread, in common with the OP I don't recognise the 'doom and gloom' scenario that some folk comment on. Dare I say it, but I get a huge amount of enjoyment from this hobby. 

Orson Carter

I think most of us do. It's just that some of us have to pay more than others :-)