Models' fees

FiL said

The Costa closest to me closed last year. I guess they must have been charging more than [most] customers were prepared to pay:

Costa Coffee closes in Ludlow town centre | Ludlow Advertiser

Alternative hypothesis: someone else opened a shop that sold something called coffee and people developed a taste for it!

Sevenoaks drove out its only McDonald's some years back. Because why would you queue in a grubby McDonald's away from the shops when you could get a decent burger in any one of the large number of family-friendly pubs (or, in later years, from the Brick-Lane-style Bagel shop around the corner which is the stuff of actual legend)

Edited by Unfocussed Mike

Holly Alexander said

Russ Freeman in Birmingham sometimes I pay nearly £7 a pint!

It's £11 for a Vodka and Red Bull in one of the pubs around here :-(

Ian 

Edited by IanClive

Unfocussed Mike said

FiL said

The Costa closest to me closed last year. I guess they must have been charging more than [most] customers were prepared to pay:

Costa Coffee closes in Ludlow town centre | Ludlow Advertiser

Alternative hypothesis: someone else opened a shop that sold something called coffee and people developed a taste for it!

Sevenoaks drove out its only McDonald's some years back. Because why would you queue in a grubby McDonald's away from the shops when you could get a decent burger in any one of the large number of family-friendly pubs (or, in later years, from the Brick-Lane-style Bagel shop around the corner which is the stuff of actual legend)

Edited by Unfocussed Mike

Same thing, surely. Understand your market and your place within it. If there's no room for you, cut your losses and move on.

Fees will find their own level. If fees are too high then people with high fees will get reduced amounts or no work. I don't think that many hobbyist photographers could afford to pay commercial rates.

Gothic Image said

JPea said

As a photographer that messes around with the hobby of photography, the point for me is whether the results (images)  I get are worth the fee I am quoted.

This may be high or not, but I will go away happy and think that money well spent if I go home with a few satisfactory images and the memory of a day well spent

Aha - I was waiting for someone to point out that price and worth are not the same thing.  :-)

Considering the comparator is Costa coffee, I would hope we were all stipulating to that.

Huw - that’s the great thing about percentages eh? A massive % increase on bugger all … bugger all

Lenswonder said

I'm not sure about a drain on models going overseas, more likely they will just stop modelling. Or find a different possibly more erotic form as in other websites that may involve less modelling and more something porn-like. I wouldn't comment on what photographers are offering because well at least they are offering something & are usually the one side doing so.

With models in EU some are in some sort of model union type thing , I'm not exactly sure how it works. However, if no one wants to pay for the prices no one will get paid.

I work as a business adviser.  One of my clients has a queue round the block for his services.  But….as soon as he mentions fees….the queue evaporates.  Over the past couple of years he has tried everything, lower fees, phased payment terms, ratcheted fee levels etc.  Last week he gave in.  He accepted that though loads of potential clients want his services…….not a one is willing to pay even a bean for them.

So, back to the drawing board…..or a different business altogether…..exactly as you suggest models may do/be doing.

When the supply of models dries up….the fees will go up.

Who the fuck is getting these good pay rises?

Not me. Not at all! Despite bringing in the company a very large percentage of revenue effectively single-handedly. What more can I do, short of get a new job… which are also paying balls!

I want one with good pay and raises!!

Unfocussed Mike

The sad thing is that Costa Coffee is "probably" the "best" of its peers.

MidgePhoto said

Chris Green said

... The best measure of general price inflation, CPIH, has increased by 20% over the last 3 years.  That means that a model charging £40 an hour 3 years ago needs to charge £50 an hour now just to buy the same basket of goods.  And in most jobs more experience would be rewarded with a promotional increase as well, so that same model should probably be charging £55 or £60 an hour now.

However, I keep seeing casting calls from photographers offering models around £25 an hour.  I've even seen one offering £15 an hour.  I've also seen comments from other photographers saying things like they won't pay more than £30 an hour (for fashion).  Many of us (photographers) have enjoyed massive pay rises over the last couple of years (for example, junior doctors are hoping to get 35%), State pensions are index-linked, savings rates are higher now than for many years, and the FTSE 100 is close to an all-time high.  With that background, I'm struggling with the concept of £15 to £30 an hour for a professional service.

Junior doctors (who may BTW be treating your heart attack, or fixing your hernia from carrying all that kit around, are more in the position of the models, having had pay progressively reduced for the last 14 years. It does tend to go in spasms, there was need for one the previous time a strong of governments changed. 

And as noted, they are hoping for an increase to prior parity over a period.  I think they put up with it for far too long, but they are a keen lot and think what they do should continue to happen.

With that note, I concur.

The sandwich of the OP is worth about the same as it ever was (The Economist maintains a Big Mac index over most of the world for comparisons of this sort) but the pounds are worth, by this example, about half as much.

Duration used as a proxy for experience and ability, therefore increments, is only accurate to a point. Many of us have not had 30 years experience, we have had 10 years, each repeated 3 times, or 3 BY 10 or whatever, and there are people and activities which grasp and are grasped in a short time, and then remain of constant value - the increments have more to do with the falling value of currency and expansion of capital. 

Before the Economist Big Mac index, we used a Mars Bar index ( 1986 or so).
You worked out your job offer in Mars Bars, and compared it to your home country.

Staples...    sugar, milk, chocolate, plus energy costs.

IanClive said

Holly Alexander said

Russ Freeman in Birmingham sometimes I pay nearly £7 a pint!

It's £11 for a Vodka and Red Bull in one of the pubs around here :-(

Ian 

Edited by IanClive

My local is in a tourist mecca. The landlord gave me (and other regulars) an account in his till system which provides a significant discount on bar prices.

Chris Green said

 

{1} I bought two sandwiches and two drinks in a well-known high street coffee retailer yesterday and I absent-mindedly offered the cashier a £10 note.  She rejected that and pointed out that I owed her £22.

{2} I keep seeing casting calls from photographers offering models around £25 an hour.  I've even seen one offering £15 an hour.  I've also seen comments from other photographers saying things like they won't pay more than £30 an hour (for fashion). 

{1} Nice to see I'm not alone in using the high street coffee as a measure of price. 

{2} Back when I ran a business my accountant gave me two rules of thumb, divide annual salary by 2000 to give hourly pay rate; charge-out rate should be 3x pay rate, to cover non-billable hours and the other costs of the job. A 30K salary implies a 45 p/h charge out rate. £15 an hour would be an insulting £10K salary  -  I haven't seen anything to suggest better rules of thumb for models. 

I think there is an assumption that models bill 35-40 hours per week 52 weeks of the year, when you think about the feasibility of that... 

There are people who can't afford a sensible rate but offer what they can, and there's a certain kind of man who is well able to pay, but looks down on the kind of people who work as models, which comes out in what they are willing to pay. 

As someone who works freelance, I don't regard people who won't pay the rate as potential clients :-) 

CalmNudes That's a good rule of thumb and I think I've heard something similar.  I suspect that the non-billable hours are quite substantial for models - all that correspondence with dozens of photographers (which may or may not result in a shoot), travelling time, social media posts, outfit buying etc.  As an aside, I'm still surprised that only a minority of models charge for travelling time - as in other industries it's absolutely normal to bill that time to clients in addition to the out-of-pocket disbursements.

CalmNudes said

.

Back when I ran a business my accountant gave me two rules of thumb, divide annual salary by 2000 to give hourly pay rate; charge-out rate should be 3x pay rate, to cover non-billable hours and the other costs of the job. A 30K salary implies a 45 p/h charge out rate. £15 an hour would be an insulting £10K salary 

Exactly.

Now a model who charges £30 per hour and works three full days per week makes 50% more than one who charges £60 per hour and works one day per week.
Maximising billable hours is  important.

Chris Green said

CalmNudes That's a good rule of thumb and I think I've heard something similar.  I suspect that the non-billable hours are quite substantial for models - all that correspondence with dozens of photographers (which may or may not result in a shoot), travelling time, social media posts, outfit buying etc.  As an aside, I'm still surprised that only a minority of models charge for travelling time - as in other industries it's absolutely normal to bill that time to clients in addition to the out-of-pocket disbursements.

It's an oft rolled-out 'rule of thumb' but frequently misunderstood by those that do so.

1/3rd payroll, 1/3rd business premises/overhead and 1/3rd profit.

Models don't have business premises and their overheads aren't usually so significant. Profit (over and beyond what might be considered reasonable pay for a freelancer) is an aspiration, of course, but whether it can be achieved relies on so much more than a 'rule of thumb'.

Edited by FiL