Is it just me or is there a growing divide between models and photographers (especially on the forums)?

I don't think the moderation of the forums is a problem personally, I think the rules are well established and its very rare for people to be outright rude or overly aggressive. Its more passive and occasionally overt mysogyny, pointlessly argumentative behaviour, pedantry and superciliousness which deters people, particularly models from contributing in my opinion.

Many models are genuinely fearful of writing anything remotely opinionated on the forums.

Apart from the last few weeks when I have had some time on my hands, I generally avoid the forums myself.

Many models aren't even interested in photography. They are here for the money and the opportunity to be their own boss.

I don't know why anyone would think they would be here for anything else.

However young people will spend countless hours chatting on Facebook hence why models are more likely to be on there.

Spending x hours a day on shoots doesn't mean they will be interested in spending y hours of their own time on forums.

The forums are not a good vehicle for finding shoots unless general marketing is so bad that is better than nothing

The models who frequent the forums put people off because they are like that anyway.

As I said earlier the fundemental problem with the forums is people arguing others should or shouldn't do something the want to do or trying to accuse one group of exploiting another.

Most people are generally happy in their own world until someone else decides they will try and interfere and also dismiss their own reasons

Edited by Gerry99111

gjp said

John VonGeezer said

I think it’s just you

Models have never dominated the forums on account of having better stuff to do and not really being interested in the shit that Middle Aged farts are into.

There have always been angry ‘togs’ generating threads that obliquely apply pressure to models to change the way they operate - whether whinges about models castings, tiered fees for levels or getting images from paid shoots - it’s never really changed.

What has changed is just how easy it is to make super cool images with ‘basic’ gear these days. Photography has become easy. Models can do it and are often rather good at it. They can shoot other models and give them awesome pics and pack the front page with their FPIs from shoots that are often better fun than those with grumpy old men like us :(

That makes some people angry, and they post bitchy threads to whinge about it.

It was always a bit like this

It could well just be me - it wouldn’t be the first time and unlikely to be the last :)

Time for us grumpy old men to up our game then ;)

I can see why you might have thought it - but it really hasn't changed in the 11 years or so that I've been on forums like this. We've had a few whiney posts come along like buses on a Sunday afternoon and suddenly the word 'toxic' is being flung about and people are threatening to leave. This is entirely normal an has happened many times before and will do again. 98% of people on here wont even notice.

I would up my game if I had the talent and wasn't quite so lazy. ;)

gjp said

...I will probably be battered for being a ‘white knight’, but I personally don’t like the way I see the forums and atmosphere going, so wanted to say something...

I think that forums are similar to a lot of things in life, in that a whinge will get attention but an 'everything is OK' thread is not considered newsworthy. Every now and then, someone starts a nice positive thread on here; but after an initial flurry of enthusiasm, it gets to about page two and dies. On the other hand, a negative or whingeing thread can run and run. Good stuff is not often considered worthy of comment. 

Mind you... if you want more support for your argument or cause, don't forget the age-old method of getting attention... You need to do a dramatic-sounding, fanfare-blowing 'I'm leaving because I don't like XYZ about Purpleport' thread. Then you do not leave.   :) :) :) 

[Under EC Directive 673/3b I'm obliged to point out that that last comment was tongue in cheek (albeit not untruthful!:)]

Echoing what others have said. The forums are a barometer for what is happening in the forums not what is actually happening. No need to repeat the wise words of others above suffice it to say that my experience of working with models during the last 2 years has been really positive. That is pretty much without exception. I have met fewer photographers but they too have been a pleasure to work with.

I know what you mean Graham...but in all honestly the forums have always been a bit of a war zone at times, haha.

My first introduction to the forums (any forum) was on PureStorm in 2009...I very quickly got the impression a models opinion meant bugger all and the general vibe was if we dared to comment on anything photographic related we were stuck up/ didn't actually have a valid opinion worth sharing. 

I remember commenting on someone's share a shoot all those years ago, I loved the images but I was curious what a different crop might look like on the images. I vividly recall the barrage of abuse I got back for being 'cheeky' enough to suggest a different crop- who did I think I was?! I remember mentioning I was just joining in with the discussions like everyone else was...and as I was studying art I figured my opinion might have been valid...An early lesson in how forums can be.

Over the years I have wasted tooooo many hours on forums. I used to get really involved in things, I wanted to share my opinion on things- like everyone else did- but in doing so I got labelled argumentative/ scary/ a bitch, haha, just because I didn't always stay quiet and simply stood my ground/ got involved in discussions. 

It was a frustrating few years in my early days as I was pretty young/ still learning and could never get my head around the attitudes on the forums towards some models/ younger people in general. It baffled me completely and used to wind me up no end- probably why I was more argumentative- as I was pretty pissed off at the crap models can get and I felt it was unfairly dished out. I mean, I often thought, this guy just called me 'fat' and 'butch'- does he not have a wife, a daughter around my age perhaps? How might he feel if some 50 year old on the internet was calling his daughter butch and fat? Why is he doing it to me? Why did people tell me over and over I would never go anywhere in this bubble, that I had nothing to give? In a way I am glad the bastards gave me a hard time, because it lit a fire under my ass to prove the morons wrong. :)

I still get frustrated at times, but I realise now, being older, that a lot of the trolls on PP are just sad losers with nothing better to do than wind people up and get some kind of thrill from it. It's pretty pathetic and I pity them now.

Sooo....I'm really not sure if it's worse now, I had a pretty rough ride almost a decade ago so many my opinion is a bit skewed- I just never gave up ;) I think it's just different now- different things to argue about, to moan about. Different things we all do that piss people off, more people using the internet to let off steam etc ;) 

Now to get on with my chores and to-do list, fun fun! :P 

:) 

I recall posting something quite a few years ago, actually on another network, where I expressed distaste for a certain expression younger people were using.

I was surprised when a young model I know responded to my post, saying she was in the habit of using the expression and was a bit miffed at what I had said.

I apologised, as it hadn't occurred to me that people might be offended, and I also realised that I would have been better keeping my thoughts to myself.

And I learned something - as we get older and the years roll by we don't always see very easily that some of our attitudes have just become out of date ;)

I always like to join in on the forums as I find it very interesting to see everyone's ideas and opinions, it doesn't put me off shooting with anyone no matter their ideas.

I do think over the years less and less models contribute to (& probably don't read) the forums. 

Some of this is due to how much time they have - most just use the site to arrange shoots

As some have already said, I think some, if not many, have found it detrimental to appear to have an opinion. 

It is not just the way they may be responded to if they do contribute but also the impact on bookings that might occur

Edited by NigeNw

To be honest these forums are really tame, around 2005/6 time I used to use the Friends Reunited Forums, and you can take it from me they were bad and very toxic with bullying threats of death you name it it went on, at the time it was owned by ITV,  it in fact it got so bad that by around 2008/9  I think I'm correct but  they closed the forums down, as it had become so polluted with hatred that the moderators couldn't cope anymore.

I'll be honest, I've stopped using the forums on my model account, I just don't have the energy for it anymore. Most I will do is post share a shoot of my fave shoots.

I might get more involved here on my photography account, but no where near as much as I used to. What I used to find a creative outlet and fun discussion place is now full blown arguments constantly, and posts read more like a "who is better than who" and "this is why im pissed off today" or "how dare models do this or that"

Artemis Fauna said

I know what you mean Graham...but in all honestly the forums have always been a bit of a war zone at times, haha.

My first introduction to the forums (any forum) was on PureStorm in 2009...I very quickly got the impression a models opinion meant bugger all and the general vibe was if we dared to comment on anything photographic related we were stuck up/ didn't actually have a valid opinion worth sharing. 

I remember commenting on someone's share a shoot all those years ago, I loved the images but I was curious what a different crop might look like on the images. I vividly recall the barrage of abuse I got back for being 'cheeky' enough to suggest a different crop- who did I think I was?! I remember mentioning I was just joining in with the discussions like everyone else was...and as I was studying art I figured my opinion might have been valid...An early lesson in how forums can be.

Over the years I have wasted tooooo many hours on forums. I used to get really involved in things, I wanted to share my opinion on things- like everyone else did- but in doing so I got labelled argumentative/ scary/ a bitch, haha, just because I didn't always stay quiet and simply stood my ground/ got involved in discussions. 

It was a frustrating few years in my early days as I was pretty young/ still learning and could never get my head around the attitudes on the forums towards some models/ younger people in general. It baffled me completely and used to wind me up no end- probably why I was more argumentative- as I was pretty pissed off at the crap models can get and I felt it was unfairly dished out. I mean, I often thought, this guy just called me 'fat' and 'butch'- does he not have a wife, a daughter around my age perhaps? How might he feel if some 50 year old on the internet was calling his daughter butch and fat? Why is he doing it to me? Why did people tell me over and over I would never go anywhere in this bubble, that I had nothing to give? In a way I am glad the bastards gave me a hard time, because it lit a fire under my ass to prove the morons wrong. :)

I still get frustrated at times, but I realise now, being older, that a lot of the trolls on PP are just sad losers with nothing better to do than wind people up and get some kind of thrill from it. It's pretty pathetic and I pity them now.

Sooo....I'm really not sure if it's worse now, I had a pretty rough ride almost a decade ago so many my opinion is a bit skewed- I just never gave up ;) I think it's just different now- different things to argue about, to moan about. Different things we all do that piss people off, more people using the internet to let off steam etc ;) 

Now to get on with my chores and to-do list, fun fun! :P 

:) 

Oh, for heaven's sake!

Women should stick to the things they understand...like ironing and house cleaning. How can they ever get to grips with stuff like "Art" and pressing a button on a camera.

They are now taking the bread out of the mouths of proper photographers by taking photographs of each other.

They will be wanting the vote next (although, it could be best not to have this and be able to blame others for the present situation) and the Prime Minister is a woman, and look where we are now.

There that feels better getting that off my chest.

I will now go and do my laundry and ironing and maybe plan a shoot....if there are any models who would want to shoot with me.

JPea said

Artemis Fauna said

I know what you mean Graham...but in all honestly the forums have always been a bit of a war zone at times, haha.

My first introduction to the forums (any forum) was on PureStorm in 2009...I very quickly got the impression a models opinion meant bugger all and the general vibe was if we dared to comment on anything photographic related we were stuck up/ didn't actually have a valid opinion worth sharing. 

I remember commenting on someone's share a shoot all those years ago, I loved the images but I was curious what a different crop might look like on the images. I vividly recall the barrage of abuse I got back for being 'cheeky' enough to suggest a different crop- who did I think I was?! I remember mentioning I was just joining in with the discussions like everyone else was...and as I was studying art I figured my opinion might have been valid...An early lesson in how forums can be.

Over the years I have wasted tooooo many hours on forums. I used to get really involved in things, I wanted to share my opinion on things- like everyone else did- but in doing so I got labelled argumentative/ scary/ a bitch, haha, just because I didn't always stay quiet and simply stood my ground/ got involved in discussions. 

It was a frustrating few years in my early days as I was pretty young/ still learning and could never get my head around the attitudes on the forums towards some models/ younger people in general. It baffled me completely and used to wind me up no end- probably why I was more argumentative- as I was pretty pissed off at the crap models can get and I felt it was unfairly dished out. I mean, I often thought, this guy just called me 'fat' and 'butch'- does he not have a wife, a daughter around my age perhaps? How might he feel if some 50 year old on the internet was calling his daughter butch and fat? Why is he doing it to me? Why did people tell me over and over I would never go anywhere in this bubble, that I had nothing to give? In a way I am glad the bastards gave me a hard time, because it lit a fire under my ass to prove the morons wrong. :)

I still get frustrated at times, but I realise now, being older, that a lot of the trolls on PP are just sad losers with nothing better to do than wind people up and get some kind of thrill from it. It's pretty pathetic and I pity them now.

Sooo....I'm really not sure if it's worse now, I had a pretty rough ride almost a decade ago so many my opinion is a bit skewed- I just never gave up ;) I think it's just different now- different things to argue about, to moan about. Different things we all do that piss people off, more people using the internet to let off steam etc ;) 

Now to get on with my chores and to-do list, fun fun! :P 

:) 

Oh, for heaven's sake!

Women should stick to the things they understand...like ironing and house cleaning. How can they ever get to grips with stuff like "Art" and pressing a button on a camera.

They are now taking the bread out of the mouths of proper photographers by taking photographs of each other.

They will be wanting the vote next (although, it could be best not to have this and be able to blame others for the present situation) and the Prime Minister is a woman, and look where we are now.

There that feels better getting that off my chest.

I will now go and do my laundry and ironing and maybe plan a shoot....if there are any models who would want to shoot with me.

I can lend you a WWII helmet and Flack jacket if you like might give you some protection :d

I found this Cold War bunker........

Heheh... you may need it! :)