How Taiwan beat covid

imagery said

The better a countries health care system is the more people fail to look after themselves (smoking, diet e.t.c.) in the knowledge they will be saved. Air ambulances , advanced cancer treatments , expensive sustaining medications e.t.c.

The better a countries health care system is the more vulnerable people there are that could and die in a pandemic, where the ability to sustain life, that would have otherwise been extinct suddenly changes.

I think this may well be one of the reasons for a lot of the relative ("apparent") success or failure in preventing a rise is excess deaths.

Our healthcare is vastly better than the 1940s. 80% of adults smoked then. 

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

Seven steps to the gutter eh?  Pretty good, even in PP terms.

If you are referring to my post, 80,000 people who foster children bankrupted through actions of a government which refuses to take responsibility, is the gutter. It is one of many government actions that has created anger in the Netherlands while it looks after the rich. The pandemic is probably not the main reason for the rioting and protesting but the spark. 

The fact is, the more rightwing a government, the more incompetent they seem to be in tackling the pandemic.

Edited by vanBrughuis

I was, and how quickly an argument can become "Ad Hominem", or socio-politically biased.

Truth is, it is easy to sit with a pile of brickbats to throw, armed with hindsight, and words like "Too Slow", "Foolhardy", "Too Late", "Too Early", etc.  When the truth is hindsight is always too late in firefighting, adding value more in fire prevention.

I cannot abide people who try and make political gain when they have not been tested.

Take a turn in the front line, then speak from experience perhaps?

GhostOfArielAdam said

imagery said

The better a countries health care system is the more people fail to look after themselves (smoking, diet e.t.c.) in the knowledge they will be saved. Air ambulances , advanced cancer treatments , expensive sustaining medications e.t.c.

The better a countries health care system is the more vulnerable people there are that could and die in a pandemic, where the ability to sustain life, that would have otherwise been extinct suddenly changes.

I think this may well be one of the reasons for a lot of the relative ("apparent") success or failure in preventing a rise is excess deaths.

Our healthcare is vastly better than the 1940s. 80% of adults smoked then. 

Yes that's what i meant, 80% of adults smoked in the 1940's and they are still alive today, they were saved by our healthcare system and have been sustained through ever improving health care all be it in a very vulnerable position. 

In countries with lesser health care systems those same smokers of the 1940's have long since passed.

Bob @ Fatbloke said

Countries that have populations that listen and follow guidance do not need draconian legislation.  That is always in the back pocket in places such as Taiwan?

The people of countries such as UK exercise their "right do die and kill others"....often loudly and by waving banners.

I've been to Taipei......people are not the same there as in Leicester?

This ^

And as for "could be difficult to replicate in the West, where social media are more often weaponised to sow discord than to fight disinformation" - boy, ain't that true...

imagery said

GhostOfArielAdam said

imagery said

The better a countries health care system is the more people fail to look after themselves (smoking, diet e.t.c.) in the knowledge they will be saved. Air ambulances , advanced cancer treatments , expensive sustaining medications e.t.c.

The better a countries health care system is the more vulnerable people there are that could and die in a pandemic, where the ability to sustain life, that would have otherwise been extinct suddenly changes.

I think this may well be one of the reasons for a lot of the relative ("apparent") success or failure in preventing a rise is excess deaths.

Our healthcare is vastly better than the 1940s. 80% of adults smoked then. 

Yes that's what i meant, 80% of adults smoked in the 1940's and they are still alive today, they were saved by our healthcare system and have been sustained through ever improving health care all be it in a very vulnerable position. 

In countries with lesser health care systems those same smokers of the 1940's have long since passed.

Highlighted bit. If it were as simple as you suggest than smoking rates would be higher now than in the 1940s. 

imagery said

GhostOfArielAdam said

imagery said

The better a countries health care system is the more people fail to look after themselves (smoking, diet e.t.c.) in the knowledge they will be saved. Air ambulances , advanced cancer treatments , expensive sustaining medications e.t.c.

The better a countries health care system is the more vulnerable people there are that could and die in a pandemic, where the ability to sustain life, that would have otherwise been extinct suddenly changes.

I think this may well be one of the reasons for a lot of the relative ("apparent") success or failure in preventing a rise is excess deaths.

Our healthcare is vastly better than the 1940s. 80% of adults smoked then. 

Yes that's what i meant, 80% of adults smoked in the 1940's and they are still alive today, they were saved by our healthcare system and have been sustained through ever improving health care all be it in a very vulnerable position. 

In countries with lesser health care systems those same smokers of the 1940's have long since passed.

Taiwan has an excellent single-payer healthcare system with universal coverage and very few C19 deaths. The USA has very poor healthcare coverage and a hell of a lot of C19 deaths.

Bob @ Fatbloke said

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

Seven steps to the gutter eh?  Pretty good, even in PP terms.

If you are referring to my post, 80,000 people who foster children bankrupted through actions of a government which refuses to take responsibility, is the gutter. It is one of many government actions that has created anger in the Netherlands while it looks after the rich. The pandemic is probably not the main reason for the rioting and protesting but the spark. 

The fact is, the more rightwing a government, the more incompetent they seem to be in tackling the pandemic.

Edited by vanBrughuis

I was, and how quickly an argument can become "Ad Hominem", or socio-politically biased.

Truth is, it is easy to sit with a pile of brickbats to throw, armed with hindsight, and words like "Too Slow", "Foolhardy", "Too Late", "Too Early", etc.  When the truth is hindsight is always too late in firefighting, adding value more in fire prevention.

I cannot abide people who try and make political gain when they have not been tested.

Take a turn in the front line, then speak from experience perhaps?

There is enough to compare government decision making with because there are other governments to compare to. However, the members of this government have a track record of incompetence going back along way and they do not disappoint. Incompetence is there and thousands of unnecessary deaths because too many people look the other way. But the substance of my point was the Dutch government and the riots over the pandemic.

Edited by vanBrughuis

imagery said

The better a countries health care system is the more people fail to look after themselves (smoking, diet e.t.c.) in the knowledge they will be saved. Air ambulances , advanced cancer treatments , expensive sustaining medications e.t.c.

The better a countries health care system is the more vulnerable people there are that could and die in a pandemic, where the ability to sustain life, that would have otherwise been extinct suddenly changes.

I think this may well be one of the reasons for a lot of the relative ("apparent") success or failure in preventing a rise is excess deaths.

Are you basing this on the UK or other countries? Taiwan has an excellent healthcare system and controlled the Covid outbreak well, while the US is known for having a terrible healthcare system and has had one of the highest Covid death rates or so I've heard.

Data...... (Real Data)

becomes Information (if it is not twisted deliberately)

becomes Knowledge (if used appropriately)

becomes Wisdom (if not forgotten)

There are no shortcuts. 

Anne May said

imagery said

The better a countries health care system is the more people fail to look after themselves (smoking, diet e.t.c.) in the knowledge they will be saved. Air ambulances , advanced cancer treatments , expensive sustaining medications e.t.c.

The better a countries health care system is the more vulnerable people there are that could and die in a pandemic, where the ability to sustain life, that would have otherwise been extinct suddenly changes.

I think this may well be one of the reasons for a lot of the relative ("apparent") success or failure in preventing a rise is excess deaths.

Are you basing this on the UK or other countries? Taiwan has an excellent healthcare system and controlled the Covid outbreak well, while the US is known for having a terrible healthcare system and has had one of the highest Covid death rates or so I've heard.

We seem to have said exactly the same thing! Hopefully we're great minds that think alike and not fools who seldom differ...

GhostOfArielAdam said

imagery said

GhostOfArielAdam said

imagery said

The better a countries health care system is the more people fail to look after themselves (smoking, diet e.t.c.) in the knowledge they will be saved. Air ambulances , advanced cancer treatments , expensive sustaining medications e.t.c.

The better a countries health care system is the more vulnerable people there are that could and die in a pandemic, where the ability to sustain life, that would have otherwise been extinct suddenly changes.

I think this may well be one of the reasons for a lot of the relative ("apparent") success or failure in preventing a rise is excess deaths.

Our healthcare is vastly better than the 1940s. 80% of adults smoked then. 

Yes that's what i meant, 80% of adults smoked in the 1940's and they are still alive today, they were saved by our healthcare system and have been sustained through ever improving health care all be it in a very vulnerable position. 

In countries with lesser health care systems those same smokers of the 1940's have long since passed.

Highlighted bit. If it were as simple as you suggest than smoking rates would be higher now than in the 1940s. 

I would look at it in an overall picture of negative 'self care', it is possible to single out changes in one behavior or other in the relevant period but overall people fail to care for their health and are sustained in ever increasing numbers by the health systems in some countries.

In the 1940's it may have been smoking, today perhaps it's drugs and obesity.

Relevant also is preventative strategies v remedial strategies. Severe taxation and legislation has reduced smoking but if this were not the case it would certainly not have gone down in the UK.

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

Seven steps to the gutter eh?  Pretty good, even in PP terms.

If you are referring to my post, 80,000 people who foster children bankrupted through actions of a government which refuses to take responsibility, is the gutter. It is one of many government actions that has created anger in the Netherlands while it looks after the rich. The pandemic is probably not the main reason for the rioting and protesting but the spark. 

The fact is, the more rightwing a government, the more incompetent they seem to be in tackling the pandemic.

Edited by vanBrughuis

I was, and how quickly an argument can become "Ad Hominem", or socio-politically biased.

Truth is, it is easy to sit with a pile of brickbats to throw, armed with hindsight, and words like "Too Slow", "Foolhardy", "Too Late", "Too Early", etc.  When the truth is hindsight is always too late in firefighting, adding value more in fire prevention.

I cannot abide people who try and make political gain when they have not been tested.

Take a turn in the front line, then speak from experience perhaps?

There is enough to compare government decision making with because there are other governments to compare to. However, the members of this government have a track record of incompetence going back along way and they do not disappoint. Incompetence is there and thousands of unnecessary deaths because too many people look the other way. But the substance of my point was the Dutch government and the riots over the pandemic.

 

Edited by vanBrughuis

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

vanBrughuis said

Bob @ Fatbloke said

Seven steps to the gutter eh?  Pretty good, even in PP terms.

If you are referring to my post, 80,000 people who foster children bankrupted through actions of a government which refuses to take responsibility, is the gutter. It is one of many government actions that has created anger in the Netherlands while it looks after the rich. The pandemic is probably not the main reason for the rioting and protesting but the spark. 

The fact is, the more rightwing a government, the more incompetent they seem to be in tackling the pandemic.

Edited by vanBrughuis

I was, and how quickly an argument can become "Ad Hominem", or socio-politically biased.

Truth is, it is easy to sit with a pile of brickbats to throw, armed with hindsight, and words like "Too Slow", "Foolhardy", "Too Late", "Too Early", etc.  When the truth is hindsight is always too late in firefighting, adding value more in fire prevention.

I cannot abide people who try and make political gain when they have not been tested.

Take a turn in the front line, then speak from experience perhaps?

There is enough to compare government decision making with because there are other governments to compare to. However, the members of this government have a track record of incompetence going back along way and they do not disappoint. Incompetence is there and thousands of unnecessary deaths because too many people look the other way. But the substance of my point was the Dutch government and the riots over the pandemic.

 

Edited by vanBrughuis

Just consider......if you take your political views left enough, the tanks on the streets, and armed troops arresting people, and jailing them in camps might be threat enough to control a population quietly, even if merely a threat?

Either political extreme can cock things up, I'd wager, but they have different symptoms.

David JC said

Anne May said

We seem to have said exactly the same thing! Hopefully we're great minds that think alike and not fools who seldom differ...

It's a shame the WHO doesn't assess Taiwan, for entirely political reasons. 

GhostOfArielAdam said

David JC said

Anne May said

We seem to have said exactly the same thing! Hopefully we're great minds that think alike and not fools who seldom differ...

It's a shame the WHO doesn't assess Taiwan, for entirely political reasons. 

I did try to find a ranking system that considers Taiwan but I couldn't. It's excluded from the OECD as well, which is usually a good guide to these things. From what I can make out, it's a single-payer system with universal coverage with indicators that place it in the top rank of the world's healthcare systems.

David JC said

GhostOfArielAdam said

David JC said

Anne May said

We seem to have said exactly the same thing! Hopefully we're great minds that think alike and not fools who seldom differ...

It's a shame the WHO doesn't assess Taiwan, for entirely political reasons. 

I did try to find a ranking system that considers Taiwan but I couldn't. It's excluded from the OECD as well, which is usually a good guide to these things. From what I can make out, it's a single-payer system with universal coverage with indicators that place it in the top rank of the world's healthcare systems.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3960712/

Skimmed it a bit... main complaint seems to be access is too easy lol