My experience as a FPI selector

FiL said

Danger-Shan said

Shooting on a live railway line - with a nude model. It's just too dangerous and would be totally irresponsible to do.
I would never do it, and I have multiple shoots on Railway lines. 

If you are ready to put in the work and have a team with you to assist, you can create images like this with most of the risks mitigated.

We drove at least 1 hour to get to this section of the line.
We had 2 assistants to help. One of them was the models boyfriend.
We shot very early morning, to get the best light and least people - while having the NIP danger and thrill

Create amazing stuff - But don't put people at risk.

A business I used to be involved in carried out trackside maintenance, usually overnight, which involved obtaining formal 'possession' before any work could commence. In theory, we had exclusive use of the section of line and assurance that no traffic could use it for the duration of the 'possession'.

In practice, we always posted a lookout which saved lives on more than one occasion.

I hope the system of ensuring sections of line are safe for maintenance is more reliable in your neck of the woods than it is in the UK.

Yeah we could see the lines cut off with Barricades.
And my scout who had been to the location the day before confirmed that this section was closed off for months.

Tim Pile said

Shandaz said

1) Remove your personal preferences when voting and vote for images that tell stories and evoke strong emotions

My images are generally about shapes, or light, rather than storytelling. Why are they less valid than story telling images?

Shandaz said

2) Look for images that have a lot of effort involved, and create a lasting impression

I couldn't disagree more, it should be about the final image and not the amount of effort involved - even though most of my images take a lot of effort!

Shandaz said

3) Stop having such a strong bias towards 'Studio Images' - I agree with model safety - but this is a photography website - not a book club. It's about striking images not a 'safety handbook'

I don't think there is a bias towards studio images, just that the vast majority of images posted are studio images, hence there will be lots of studio image FPIs.

Shandaz said

4) Stop showcasing images that are overly photoshopped because then we are ignoring a lot of true artists

All of my FPI images are straight, with very little post-processing, indeed many of them are finished in LightRoom with no PhotoShop involved.
While there are some heavily processed FPIs, they don't seem out of proportion to the amount of such images uploaded - much as point 3.

We each have different opinions about what makes a good images/FPI, and I think with over 100 FPI pickers any biases are ironed out

Tim Pile - I didn't mean any personal offense... Also I didn't look at your portfolio or anyone else's here when I compiled the list. YOUR IMAGES ARE STUNNING!!

Studio images can tell stories as well... Most movies are shot in studios :)

I think your response kind of underscores 2 points

1) We cannot escape personal preference

2) 100 + pickers voting - Sounds like a popularity contest. 

Most contests (And yes FPI is a contest) have a panel of judges - NOT more than 10 at most. 100 is way too many.

Edited by Danger-Shan

Just lighting the Blue touch paper here (and off the main topic) but I'm sure many shoots under water or near deep pools or on rocks near the see have little or no risk assessment done.  If a model slipped, fell into deep water, either tidal or with currents and needed rescuing, especially if they had hit their head and become unconscious or stopped breathing.  Working in pools is not without its risks.  How many of these have safety procedures in place.And not just rescuing he model but the person taking the image.  Should we stop FPI's of models in any of the above style of images as well ?  Railways are dangerous yes but they do seem to be the only images that create such a backlash.  

ThePictureCompany said

Just lighting the Blue touch paper here (and off the main topic) but I'm sure many shoots under water or near deep pools or on rocks near the see have little or no risk assessment done.  If a model slipped, fell into deep water, either tidal or with currents and needed rescuing, especially if they had hit their head and become unconscious or stopped breathing.  Working in pools is not without its risks.  How many of these have safety procedures in place.And not just rescuing he model but the person taking the image.  Should we stop FPI's of models in any of the above style of images as well ?  Railways are dangerous yes but they do seem to be the only images that create such a backlash.  

I was standing on a 4 step ladder, shooting a model in the pool... I lost my balance and before my assistant could catch me
1) The Camera (medium format) went into the pool
2) I hit my tailbone so hard that it fractured and I had to sit on a special pillow for over 2 years before the pain was all gone... 

ThePictureCompany - You are so right about this. And the danger is to both model and photographer. I just saw images from Tim Pile which I am sure puts him in all kinds of danger!!

Danger-Shan said

ThePictureCompany said

Just lighting the Blue touch paper here (and off the main topic) but I'm sure many shoots under water or near deep pools or on rocks near the see have little or no risk assessment done.  If a model slipped, fell into deep water, either tidal or with currents and needed rescuing, especially if they had hit their head and become unconscious or stopped breathing.  Working in pools is not without its risks.  How many of these have safety procedures in place.And not just rescuing he model but the person taking the image.  Should we stop FPI's of models in any of the above style of images as well ?  Railways are dangerous yes but they do seem to be the only images that create such a backlash.  

 I just saw images from Tim Pile which I am sure puts him in all kinds of danger!!

Actually the model and I put a lot of time and thought into the safety aspects of all of our images, and I use perspective, viewpoint and cropping to make them look more exciting than they really are.
We always consider what happens if the model trips or falls, hence many images have the model sitting down, and we have walked away from many many images as we felt they posed too much risk to the model. The model always makes the final decision.

There are some models on here who have produced images that I would have walked away from. Indeed I worked with one such model who was going to walk out to somewhere I felt dangerous, and I just said if you do that I will put my camera down and not take the shot, she didn't go there!

Danger-Shan said

2) 100 + pickers voting - Sounds like a popularity contest. 

Most contests (And yes FPI is a contest) have a panel of judges - NOT more than 10 at most. 100 is way too many.

Edited by Danger-Shan

you don't grasp what the fpi system, its a flow of pictures that Russ wants to display on the front page to entice people to join, it is not a contest, there are people here like you who want to make it a contest or see other creatives as competition.

It needs 100 people to choose enough images to keep flowing, one every hour.  It has been know for the queue to stall because there haven't been enough images in it.

With 100 people it does mean that bias towards individual is minimised. It is not a secret cabal, is it possible to game the system, well the OP of this thread seems to think so but I never saw any evidence of that. 

Anyway, join up see for yourself, it's unpaid and if you do the job properly quite time consuming.

Totally Taken said

How do I get this elusive selection for the first time? I have in the past uploaded images that would be of equal if not better than some I have seen on there but, much liked and to give equal likes to those who give them in return, but never to have received.

Edited by Totally Taken

Tim Pile said

Danger-Shan said

ThePictureCompany said

Just lighting the Blue touch paper here (and off the main topic) but I'm sure many shoots under water or near deep pools or on rocks near the see have little or no risk assessment done.  If a model slipped, fell into deep water, either tidal or with currents and needed rescuing, especially if they had hit their head and become unconscious or stopped breathing.  Working in pools is not without its risks.  How many of these have safety procedures in place.And not just rescuing he model but the person taking the image.  Should we stop FPI's of models in any of the above style of images as well ?  Railways are dangerous yes but they do seem to be the only images that create such a backlash.  

 I just saw images from Tim Pile which I am sure puts him in all kinds of danger!!

Actually the model and I put a lot of time and thought into the safety aspects of all of our images, and I use perspective, viewpoint and cropping to make them look more exciting than they really are.
We always consider what happens if the model trips or falls, hence many images have the model sitting down, and we have walked away from many many images as we felt they posed too much risk to the model. The model always makes the final decision.

There are some models on here who have produced images that I would have walked away from. Indeed I worked with one such model who was going to walk out to somewhere I felt dangerous, and I just said if you do that I will put my camera down and not take the shot, she didn't go there!

You are NICE - Tim Pile
I am DANGER - Shan ;) 

Allesandro B said

Danger-Shan said

2) 100 + pickers voting - Sounds like a popularity contest. 

Most contests (And yes FPI is a contest) have a panel of judges - NOT more than 10 at most. 100 is way too many.

Edited by Danger-Shan

you don't grasp what the fpi system, its a flow of pictures that Russ wants to display on the front page to entice people to join, it is not a contest, there are people here like you who want to make it a contest or see other creatives as competition.

It needs 100 people to choose enough images to keep flowing, one every hour.  It has been know for the queue to stall because there haven't been enough images in it.

With 100 people it does mean that bias towards individual is minimised. It is not a secret cabal, is it possible to game the system, well the OP of this thread seems to think so but I never saw any evidence of that. 

Anyway, join up see for yourself, it's unpaid and if you do the job properly quite time consuming.

Allesandro B - And Russ Freeman  Tim Pile

Ok - I guess the pressure of putting an image up in the showcase every hour makes the FPI system a flow of pictures.
I have a few questions

1) If it is not a contest - Why is it considered and showcased as an Award by Photographers/Models that get an image up there

2) If it's not a contest - why are there FPI badges?

In any case - I created a group called 'Visual Masterpieces - The Hall of Fame Collection' 
I would absolutely love it if you guys would join the group and we can curate the best of the best images - with no pressure (hourly) - No Badges etc - But just as a showcase of THE MOST stunning images PP has to offer :)

I have invited all of you. And will make you all moderators.

Thanks,
Shan

Danger-Shan said

Russ Freeman - Everyone else who is selecting FPI's 

It's not about if everyone would like every image.
What you certainly should be doing 

1) Remove your personal preferences when voting and vote for images that tell stories and evoke strong emotions

2) Look for images that have a lot of effort involved, and create a lasting impression

3) Stop having such a strong bias towards 'Studio Images' - I agree with model safety - but this is a photography website - not a book club. It's about striking images not a 'safety handbook'

4) Stop showcasing images that are overly photoshopped because then we are ignoring a lot of true artists

Those are valid criteria for a particular kind of gallery, and you are correct that they do not appear to be the ones the FPIs are intended to satisfy.

Context is important.

A wonderful landscape isn't likely to be a good candidate in a portrait competition.

An exquisite portrait might not be a good candidate for a magazine cover or advertisement.

An award-winning advertisement might not be a good portrait, or landscape, or sports photo.

Images that attract a particular audience may well not satisfy any of the criteria you list, and FPIs are intended to be advertising for the site. Not timeless images, not images that require/deserve great study, etc.

Whether they're accomplishing that goal is a separate question, but creating/selecting criteria that are not going to help them accomplish their intended goal is not a useful exercise (with regard to FPIs--they might well be excellent criteria for other purposes).

FunPhotographer said

Alyssa Taylor

Russ and the team have confirmed they have no problem with trespass images taken on live railway lines being uploaded. That’s despite it being a criminal offence in Great Britain.

I don’t agree with that decision personally, in fact I think it’s appalling, but that is their stance.

However, it doesn’t look like that particular image was taken in Great Britain and so different laws may apply.

Edited by FunPhotographer

That is not the conclusion about your image report, and it grossly miscategorises the response from our lovely Admin about your concerns.

Did you follow the advice of our lovely Admin and report your concerns to the appropriate authorities?

I guess nothing happened because over 18 months later and...nothing happened.

It's interesting what's happened to the thread.

Railway safety

FPI selection hopefuls

Truthers or conspiracy theorists , pick you label.

Regular Fpi faces playing the poker face while satirising people's questions.

Edited by Lenswonder

Lenswonder said

It's interesting what's happened to the thread.

Railway safety

FPI selection hopefuls

Truthers or conspiracy theorists , pick you label.

Regular Fpi faces playing the poker face while satirising people's questions.

Edited by Lenswonder

Well what's your stance as an elf with experience now? You bottled out of answering any more questions. Are you part of the secret cabal? What have you seen other than a queue of images to vote on and the ability to add to the queue? What's your track record like, What's your percentage success rate like? 

Personally I'd bin you off the team.

Edited by Allesandro B

Allesandro B you can personally think whatever you want to. :)

Russ Freeman said

FunPhotographer said

Alyssa Taylor

Russ and the team have confirmed they have no problem with trespass images taken on live railway lines being uploaded. That’s despite it being a criminal offence in Great Britain.

I don’t agree with that decision personally, in fact I think it’s appalling, but that is their stance.

However, it doesn’t look like that particular image was taken in Great Britain and so different laws may apply.

Edited by FunPhotographer

That is not the conclusion about your image report, and it grossly miscategorises the response from our lovely Admin about your concerns.

Did you follow the advice of our lovely Admin and report your concerns to the appropriate authorities?

I guess nothing happened because over 18 months later and...nothing happened.

Firstly, I'm not particularly happy with you sharing details, however sketchy, on the members forum of support tickets I have raised, which are supposed to be treated in absolute confidence.

Secondly, to clarify for everyone else, I said in my support ticket (the last paragraph is not quoted as it contained personal information): 

"Once again I request that you do not promote and encourage obvious trespass on Purpleport (or any activity which is against the law or potentially dangerous) by awarding images like this an FPI. No matter how good they are and irrespective as to whether it is a disused railway or slow narrow gauge one.

Please consider whether they should be allowed on here at all."

The reply from the Admin was:

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

We recommend that you raise your concerns to the appropriate authorities.

If you do so, we'd be grateful if you could update us with any developments.

Notwithstanding the fact that I considered the reply patronising in tone, it totally ducked the issue and there was no attempt to explain or defend PurplePort's policy and, guess what, you are the appropriate authority in terms of site policies when it comes to awarding FPI's, which was the reason for submitting the ticket.  Hence me using the words you've quoted in bold above, which IMHO does not 'grossly miscategorise' anything unless you are able to demonstrate that such images are routinely deleted?  If so, great, and I apologise.

It seems pretty clear that the majority of the membership who are active on the forums agree that such images should not be on here (at least not without a full explanation of context, as was provided earlier), with Firstadekit , Alyssa Taylor , and Bruin amongst others saying as much earlier in this very thread.

FunPhotographer I'm really sorry if I've escalated a discussion by mentioning it may be why it wasn't awarded an FPI. Just thought it was a potential perspective that could be why it wasn't chosen to represent the site.