Just making a point

Theta Aeterna said

ANDY00 said

Theta Aeterna said

I have several FPIs and I don‘t know anyone from the FPI  elves. At this stage, I have more images dripped from the FPI queue than the ones that made it. I am here since only a year so I am super positive that the FPI system does not work on anyones favour. Yes, some people might enjoy priority based on popularity, but that popularity is also a sign of something.

I am with Andy on this one. FPIs brought me more followers, more models interested in shooting with me, more photographers commenting on my images which is a great thing for me, but most importantly, it thought me how to present/polish my work and make it representable. 

I enjoy my and other people‘s FPIs.

Always a positive voice, Tim :-) and you know i appreciate your work :-) 

Me too Andy! PP changed my life forever and elevated my photography game. I remember for the first time seeing Thomas Holm, Thelema, Oven Lloyd, Tim Pile etc. images on the FPI image window. My perspective and perception changed afterwards about where I am at and what actually needs to happen to be better. Of course, there are thousands of amazing images not viable for an FPI but perfect and expressive by their own right. But when we are honest, most FPIs have at least one quality to stand out and learning how to stand out must be a great asset for any artist!

Spot on! yes and we inspire and support eachother, thats what its all about - team work makes the dream work :-)

ANDY00 said

Theta Aeterna said

ANDY00 said

Theta Aeterna said

I have several FPIs and I don‘t know anyone from the FPI  elves. At this stage, I have more images dripped from the FPI queue than the ones that made it. I am here since only a year so I am super positive that the FPI system does not work on anyones favour. Yes, some people might enjoy priority based on popularity, but that popularity is also a sign of something.

I am with Andy on this one. FPIs brought me more followers, more models interested in shooting with me, more photographers commenting on my images which is a great thing for me, but most importantly, it thought me how to present/polish my work and make it representable. 

I enjoy my and other people‘s FPIs.

Always a positive voice, Tim :-) and you know i appreciate your work :-) 

Me too Andy! PP changed my life forever and elevated my photography game. I remember for the first time seeing Thomas Holm, Thelema, Oven Lloyd, Tim Pile etc. images on the FPI image window. My perspective and perception changed afterwards about where I am at and what actually needs to happen to be better. Of course, there are thousands of amazing images not viable for an FPI but perfect and expressive by their own right. But when we are honest, most FPIs have at least one quality to stand out and learning how to stand out must be a great asset for any artist!

Spot on! yes and we inspire and support eachother, thats what its all about - team work makes the dream work :-)

Totally agree!

ANDY00 said

The system isn’t rigged or fixed. People suggest images they find worthy—anyone can. These images then sit in a queue and may or may not get selected for the landing page. Do some models get featured more than others? Of course! But some models also work more than others. Is that rigged? No. More work and more images equal more FPI opportunities. The same goes for photographers. Do they get featured more because they’re friends with an elf? Nope. These images often get hundreds of likes the day they're posted and multiple FPI suggestions. It's bitter to think they're cheating rather than appreciating that they've created something truly good and worthy of recognition,That whole philosophy reeks of narcissism, tbh—'If it's not mine, they must be cheating mindset or if i didnt get it then its not worth anything - me me me me .

^ This. 

I did a few years on the PPCT, but that was a long time ago. Nevertheless, unless the system has drastically changed I can vouch for what ANDY00 says. Indeed, when I was on the team a couple of team members were removed for attempts at, shall we say, mutual back-scratching. So in those days, at least, Admin did take steps to ensure that things worked fairly and, importantly, that things were seen to work fairly - i.e. so that the conspiracy theorists were given as little ammunition as possible. I'd like to think that that was still the case. 

Just throwing this into the pot and I am sure I will get some clarification from people who know far more than I do.

Why is there not a transparent system for the FPI process (then no one can argue about fairness etc) where all the 'secret' elves have to be made public on this site and not able to get an FPI award themselves as they are in effect are the Gods of Olympus/judges (and can potentially have their own profile badge for this). Then no member could argue that there is a conflict of interest and/or an exclusivity club which can seem a little alienating to the members with less followers etc? Would this process (or another alternative to the existing one) then help promote new and less followed members and show some genuine support from more established members of the site? Perhaps then it would cut down on arguments about fairness etc as it would all be clear and upfront.

I know it is all subjective and very difficult to please all of the people, all of the time, but I agree there should be an award system that helps members with less followers/potential to be seen and promoted.

Perhaps some of us are too set in our ways and it is hard to adjust to the virtual world we live in now like it or not! (much like the online social media scoring system/judgement in the Black Mirror episode 'Nosedive')

One Bright Spark said

Just throwing this into the pot and I am sure I will get some clarification from people who know far more than I do.

Why is there not a transparent system for the FPI process (then no one can argue about fairness etc) where all the 'secret' elves have to be made public on this site and not able to get an FPI award themselves as they are in effect are the Gods of Olympus/judges (and can potentially have their own profile badge for this). Then no member could argue that there is a conflict of interest and/or an exclusivity club which can seem a little alienating to the members with less followers etc? Would this process (or another alternative to the existing one) then help promote new and less followed members and show some genuine support from more established members of the site? Perhaps then it would cut down on arguments about fairness etc as it would all be clear and upfront.

I know it is all subjective and very difficult to please all of the people, all of the time, but I agree there should be an award system that helps members with less followers/potential to be seen and promoted.

Perhaps some of us are too set in our ways and it is hard to adjust to the virtual world we live in now like it or not! (much like the online social media scoring system/judgement in the Black Mirror episode 'Nosedive')

The system is transparent, if you or someone suggests an image it go's to - HERE - then if they are deamed of high enough standard and within the rules they go - Here -  :-)

Edited by ANDY00

ANDY00 said

One Bright Spark said

Just throwing this into the pot and I am sure I will get some clarification from people who know far more than I do.

Why is there not a transparent system for the FPI process (then no one can argue about fairness etc) where all the 'secret' elves have to be made public on this site and not able to get an FPI award themselves as they are in effect are the Gods of Olympus/judges (and can potentially have their own profile badge for this). Then no member could argue that there is a conflict of interest and/or an exclusivity club which can seem a little alienating to the members with less followers etc? Would this process (or another alternative to the existing one) then help promote new and less followed members and show some genuine support from more established members of the site? Perhaps then it would cut down on arguments about fairness etc as it would all be clear and upfront.

I know it is all subjective and very difficult to please all of the people, all of the time, but I agree there should be an award system that helps members with less followers/potential to be seen and promoted.

Perhaps some of us are too set in our ways and it is hard to adjust to the virtual world we live in now like it or not! (much like the online social media scoring system/judgement in the Black Mirror episode 'Nosedive')

The system is transparent, if you or someone suggests an image it go's to - HERE - then if they are deamed of high enough standard and within the rules they go - Here -  :-)

Edited by ANDY00

I was more referring to the judges/elves - a lot of members (some on here and some togs/models I speak to in the real world) seem to feel it is unfair and feels a bit of a private members club so just putting it out there as a question to be answered as a reasonably newbie to PP.

Edited by One Bright Spark

Thanks for that link.  I think I'll visit the first HERE more than the 'real' FPIs.  Looks like a great selection of work by a much more varied collection of creators.  I wonder if a widget can be added so I can add it to my page?

There is too much great work on here that doesn't get the recognition it deserves.

And like many, I feel the current FPI process is broken, non transparent, and a clique.

WJM Videography said

The chances of us obtaining an FPI are zero [snip]

I've just suggested a couple, so let's see what happens?

One Bright Spark said

I was taking about the judges/elves - a lot of members (some on here and some togs/models I speak to in the real world) seem to feel it is unfair that it is a secret club (I am unsure who gains from this) so just putting it out there as a question to be answered as a relative newbie.

I think that is for the safety of those individuals and to ensure fairness. If everyone knew who was involved in the selections, dont you think there wouldn’t be some intimidation or bribery going on? Why would you possibly think that revealing who chooses would make it fairer?

One Bright Spark said

Just throwing this into the pot and I am sure I will get some clarification from people who know far more than I do.

Why is there not a transparent system for the FPI process (then no one can argue about fairness etc) where all the 'secret' elves have to be made public on this site and not able to get an FPI award themselves as they are in effect are the Gods of Olympus/judges (and can potentially have their own profile badge for this). Then no member could argue that there is a conflict of interest and/or an exclusivity club which can seem a little alienating to the members with less followers etc? Would this process (or another alternative to the existing one) then help promote new and less followed members and show some genuine support from more established members of the site? Perhaps then it would cut down on arguments about fairness etc as it would all be clear and upfront.

I know it is all subjective and very difficult to please all of the people, all of the time, but I agree there should be an award system that helps members with less followers/potential to be seen and promoted.

Perhaps some of us are too set in our ways and it is hard to adjust to the virtual world we live in now like it or not! (much like the online social media scoring system/judgement in the Black Mirror episode 'Nosedive')

I joined PP 13 Months ago. When I got my very first FPI, I didn't even have a picture with a Model on my port. I did not know even one person. It was picked by someone and was found good and got and FPI badge.

Now I have 13, dropped more than that from the queue and don't have any big following or even follow many people. I have maximum 10 People i adore and support and see their support through suggestions and positive comments.

I really think the only real criteria for an FPI is to stand out from the crowd with at least one quality, be it originality, editing quality, creative compositing, beauty of the model, emotion etc. I see the FPI system as PP showcasing their members' ability and quality of work to get more members and better traffic. I don't think there has to be transparency since it might put the elves under pressure or a base for discussion by the people's perception of what was worth what was not.

It is quite easy to observe. There are several Suggested FPI games. Or just check suggested images. The variation in quality and variety in genres is so huge, I think opening the system up would only cause social problems here and loss of members.

Theta Aeterna said

I joined PP 13 Months ago. When I got my very first FPI, I didn't even have a picture with a Model on my port. I did not know even one person. It was picked by someone and was found good and got and FPI badge.

Now I have 13, dropped more than that from the queue and don't have any big following or even follow many people. I have maximum 10 People i adore and support and see their support through suggestions and positive comments.

And a portfolio that deserves a lot more FPIs.  Will have a wander through and suggest them.  Fingers crossed the system works :)

ANDY00 said

One Bright Spark said

I was taking about the judges/elves - a lot of members (some on here and some togs/models I speak to in the real world) seem to feel it is unfair that it is a secret club (I am unsure who gains from this) so just putting it out there as a question to be answered as a relative newbie.

I think that is for the safety of those individuals and to ensure fairness. If everyone knew who was involved in the selections, dont you think there wouldn’t be some intimidation or bribery going on? Why would you possibly think that revealing who chooses would make it fairer?

Safety of individuals - not sure they need that much protection do they? Perhaps you know something I don't.

They are all adults I imagine so one would hope that they would have moral standards and decency (to not go down the bribery and corruption route) but this is the human race we are taking about so I fully understand your point.

Was just an idea to try and find a solution to appease members that complain it is the same ol' members getting FPIs etc then there wouldn't have an argument against it.

Andy McG said

Theta Aeterna said

I joined PP 13 Months ago. When I got my very first FPI, I didn't even have a picture with a Model on my port. I did not know even one person. It was picked by someone and was found good and got and FPI badge.

Now I have 13, dropped more than that from the queue and don't have any big following or even follow many people. I have maximum 10 People i adore and support and see their support through suggestions and positive comments.

And a portfolio that deserves a lot more FPIs.  Will have a wander through and suggest them.  Fingers crossed the system works :)

Wow Andy, super kind of you! Let me pay that back :)

Love your work too. 

ANDY00 said

The system is transparent, if you or someone suggests an image it go's to - HERE - then if they are deamed of high enough standard and within the rules they go - Here -  :-)

We seem to have strayed off topic (surprise, surprise) but it's actually more complicated than that. For an image to be voted on by the Elves it has to get into the FPI queue.  Images get into that queue by an Elf choosing them, either from the suggested collection or elsewhere.  The fact that an image has been suggested does not automatically mean that it will enter the queue, it's just one place where Elves may choose to look.

As a reminder, the FPIs aren't any award of quality, skill or anything else (although those obviously help) they are simply the images that PP chooses to represent itself to the world.  There are plenty of great images that don't meet that criteria, it doesn't mean that they are "worse" than the FPIs.  It's all explained here.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not an Elf.

I wonder how differently members would work on this site if in the terms and conditions of joining that members gave permission for images to be used on the front page, but no rosette or announcement would be given if an image was used.

I feel it would make for much less drama, and make people concentrate more on their craft as opposed to worrying about getting effpies.