Can you ever separate the art from the artist?

LifeModel said

Carlos said

LifeModel said

I think part of the trouble is we are brought up to believe good guys wear white hats and baddies wear black. Real life is somewhat more nuanced. Even the most monstrous criminals do good, even saints blot their copy books. Most of us do both good and bad things. Perhaps we should leave judgement to divine beings and the criminal courts. "Woke" politics are the modern equivalent of lynch mobs.

Yeh.  I did think about including ‘secular saints’ in my question ….not just artists.  Martin Luther King sprung to mind…..outrageously adulterous…..the Pope in the aftermath of WW2 ………who help the Nazi Ratline work so efficiently……….Mahatma Gandhi…….the ultimate racist (or should that be cast-ist?)…….any one of the many kings and rulers of West African nations and kingdoms that enslaved their fellows, brought them to Atlantic Ports and sold them to the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Dutch and, yes, the British.

You could as easily add, say, Mother Theresa or Winston Churchill to that list.

Of course as time goes by, general perceptions of right and wrong change, which has tarnished the reputation of many considered saints and heroes in their day.

I don’t disagree.  I believe individuals should be judged by the mores of THEIR times and mores, not anachronistically, by ours.  

Given our sets of examples, that would absolve both of yours and Gandhi in mine.  But not the Pope or the Africans - especially if the Colonisers are still on the hook - or MLK - glasshouses and stones come to mind - dont allow yourself to be put on a pedestal if you are not completely squeaky clean.

Always... art and artist - art and era - art and region - art and religion - None of these really matter as conjoined paradigms. The art matters in pure isolation.

And FWIW I love everything I've read that Dahl has written. 'Danny the Champion of the World' was the book I read most as a child, at least 4 or 5 times.

Rolf harris. I almost bought one of his paintings, after he was discovered to be a nonce, it was really rather good. I wish i could find someone who could paint the same picture that wasn't a paedo.

When was the last time you heard'Two little boys'?

Edited by John VonGeezer

My favourite film is ‘Chinatown’ - directed by Roman Polanski (who has an outstanding arrest warrant against him in the USA for marrying an under age wife) For balance, I could point out that a certain religious profit had a nine-year-old wife, and yet somehow he still remains very popular with a lot of people.

Stanmore said

Always... art and artist - art and era - art and region - art and religion - None of these really matter as conjoined paradigms. The art matters in pure isolation.

And FWIW I love everything I've read that Dahl has written. 'Danny the Champion of the World' was the book I read most as a child, at least 4 or 5 times.

I get your point.  But taking John VonGeezer ’s point in Rolf Harris, could he separate the painting on his wall (had he bought it) from the crimes of its creator.  My guess he would be reminded every time he looked at it.  Hence his failure to purchase.

Having said that I agree with you on books.  They are different.  You are steeped in the story and the characters and the author rarely enters your consciousness at the time of reading…..even if you accept his or her alleged foibles…..which in the case of RD, I don’t.

Jimmy Saville had a white early two door Range Rover specially built with a double bed in the back.

Saw it advertised many years ago for £50,000.

Probably been crushed now. Shame he wasn’t in it….

As much as some people would like to say they can , with the media it's not and the media generally influences people's thinking and behaviour. When Rolf Harris got found out it wasn't long before the paintings got a bad name , there are also cases of more present day musicians who people now question and I'm sure radio stations will cease playing.

Kirk Schwarz said

CalmNudes assuming it was an accident - the original charge was death by dangerous driving, suggested by some to be wrong side of the road.

But I agree, and likewise by monogamy failures. Might be a dick move, but that’s just a part of the general human condition.

Some "monogamy failures" cause great and foreseeable hurt to other people. Others don't.  As I understand the Wikipedia article, the impact was on the other party's side of the road, and there was nothing to say what sort of error on Broderick's part resulted in that. As someone who once made a turn in France that put me on wrong side of the road (with a bus between me and the right side) , and who once got distracted by something in the car and drove into stationary traffic, I know you don't need to be a hooligan to get potentially do a lot of harm.      

Carlos said

LifeModel said

Carlos said

LifeModel said

I think part of the trouble is we are brought up to believe good guys wear white hats and baddies wear black. Real life is somewhat more nuanced. [snip]

Yeh.  I did think about including ‘secular saints’ in my question ….not just artists.  [Snip]

[snip] as time goes by, general perceptions of right and wrong change, which has tarnished the reputation of many considered saints and heroes in their day.

I don’t disagree.  I believe individuals should be judged by the mores of THEIR times and mores, not anachronistically, by ours.  

[snip] dont allow yourself to be put on a pedestal if you are not completely squeaky clean.

Except that doesn't work. None of the people concerned chose to put on pedestals. If you take Churchill, he was a not very academic member of the semi-aristocracy (his uncle was Duke of Marlborough), and a self medicating manic-depressive, with views typical of anyone who grew up in Victorian times. If he hadn't defeated Hitler there would be nothing to celebrate about the guy at all.

I'm fond of pointing out that when I was born men cold still go to prison for being gay. My parents' generation were brought up think that was quite proper, my kids' generation barely see sexual orientation as a point of difference, and mine in the middle has made a lot of the changes. Not all cultures feel that way. 100 years for now might the pendulum swing back against acceptance of gay people ? In which my generation will be view negatively, or will those around today want to cancel people from the early 20th century who were all for locking them up? 

Take Edward Colston in Bristol; at a time when slavery was normal he made money running a slaving operation founded by King James II before he was kind, and supported by King Charles II (neither of whom history wants to cancel). Colston had no one to leave that money to so gave it away to good causes. We find how people made money in the the late 17th century to be pretty unsavoury, but where there's an example of one whose money did good, what should one do?  Pretend that Bristol (among other places) didn't do very well out of the slave trade (and killing people with the Tobacco that it produced even after slavery ended) - where did the money to get Brunel to build the Great Western Railway come from? Should I refuse to travel into Paddington as a result ? 

And if we circle back to Dahl ... I did the Merchant of Venice at school; Shylock talks about being spat on and called dog, but the play paints him as nasty, grasping and getting his comeuppance, and it's a valid question to ask what Shakespeare encourages people to think about Jews by writing that. Do we see anything of that sort in Dahl's books? I'm pretty sure not. We see horrible people of no particular demographic or ethnicity, Quentin Blakes drawings don't lead us in any particular direction either. Did he do harm that the rest of society wasn't routinely doing - like driving badly, or trading in things made by slaves? I don't think so.  

almost as if humans are 3 dimensional beings with good points and bad.  who'd have thought?

i'm not a fan of reducing all an individual is to just one aspect of their life.  

CalmNudes said

Kirk Schwarz said

CalmNudes assuming it was an accident - the original charge was death by dangerous driving, suggested by some to be wrong side of the road.

But I agree, and likewise by monogamy failures. Might be a dick move, but that’s just a part of the general human condition.

Some "monogamy failures" cause great and foreseeable hurt to other people. Others don't.  As I understand the Wikipedia article, the impact was on the other party's side of the road, and there was nothing to say what sort of error on Broderick's part resulted in that. As someone who once made a turn in France that put me on wrong side of the road (with a bus between me and the right side) , and who once got distracted by something in the car and drove into stationary traffic, I know you don't need to be a hooligan to get potentially do a lot of harm.      

Carlos said

LifeModel said

Carlos said

LifeModel said

I think part of the trouble is we are brought up to believe good guys wear white hats and baddies wear black. Real life is somewhat more nuanced. [snip]

Yeh.  I did think about including ‘secular saints’ in my question ….not just artists.  [Snip]

[snip] as time goes by, general perceptions of right and wrong change, which has tarnished the reputation of many considered saints and heroes in their day.

I don’t disagree.  I believe individuals should be judged by the mores of THEIR times and mores, not anachronistically, by ours.  

[snip] dont allow yourself to be put on a pedestal if you are not completely squeaky clean.

Except that doesn't work. None of the people concerned chose to put on pedestals. If you take Churchill, he was a not very academic member of the semi-aristocracy (his uncle was Duke of Marlborough), and a self medicating manic-depressive, with views typical of anyone who grew up in Victorian times. If he hadn't defeated Hitler there would be nothing to celebrate about the guy at all.

I'm fond of pointing out that when I was born men cold still go to prison for being gay. My parents' generation were brought up think that was quite proper, my kids' generation barely see sexual orientation as a point of difference, and mine in the middle has made a lot of the changes. Not all cultures feel that way. 100 years for now might the pendulum swing back against acceptance of gay people ? In which my generation will be view negatively, or will those around today want to cancel people from the early 20th century who were all for locking them up? 

Take Edward Colston in Bristol; at a time when slavery was normal he made money running a slaving operation founded by King James II before he was kind, and supported by King Charles II (neither of whom history wants to cancel). Colston had no one to leave that money to so gave it away to good causes. We find how people made money in the the late 17th century to be pretty unsavoury, but where there's an example of one whose money did good, what should one do?  Pretend that Bristol (among other places) didn't do very well out of the slave trade (and killing people with the Tobacco that it produced even after slavery ended) - where did the money to get Brunel to build the Great Western Railway come from? Should I refuse to travel into Paddington as a result ? 

And if we circle back to Dahl ... I did the Merchant of Venice at school; Shylock talks about being spat on and called dog, but the play paints him as nasty, grasping and getting his comeuppance, and it's a valid question to ask what Shakespeare encourages people to think about Jews by writing that. Do we see anything of that sort in Dahl's books? I'm pretty sure not. We see horrible people of no particular demographic or ethnicity, Quentin Blakes drawings don't lead us in any particular direction either. Did he do harm that the rest of society wasn't routinely doing - like driving badly, or trading in things made by slaves? I don't think so.  

I’m afraid we seem to be furiously agreeing.

Well again, it depends on the situation. The plotting to rape an actual baby/ infant ruins the songs I love. I think it depends on the situation

BC2024 said

almost as if humans are 3 dimensional beings with good points and bad.  who'd have thought?

i'm not a fan of reducing all an individual is to just one aspect of their life.  

I was going to say something similar as this highlights the dangers of labelling people as being entirely "this" or entirely "that" - of course, those that have done truly terrible things are far less deserving of sympathy, but humans are complex and multi-facetted creatures.

I despair at the current trend of destroying the reputations of historical figures based on our pretended sense of moral superiority - and with often harsh and unforgiving conclusions drawn from a superficial and simplistic understanding of their lives and the times they lived in.

Simon Cole said

BC2024 said

almost as if humans are 3 dimensional beings with good points and bad.  who'd have thought?

i'm not a fan of reducing all an individual is to just one aspect of their life.  

I was going to say something similar as this highlights the dangers of labelling people as being entirely "this" or entirely "that" - of course, those that have done truly terrible things are far less deserving of sympathy, but humans are complex and multi-facetted creatures.

I despair at the current trend of destroying the reputations of historical figures based on our pretended sense of moral superiority - and with often harsh and unforgiving conclusions drawn from a superficial and simplistic understanding of their lives and the times they lived in.

On a slightly tangential topic: I wonder how the police would be expected to react to the ‘downing’ of the Colston statue in Bristol post the ‘Southport’ riots.  While Starmer’s response was speedy and commendable he may have made a rod for his own back.  Two-tier policing anyone?  Kinda removes the police’s judgement/wiggle room methinks.

Edited by Carlos

Pulling down a statue of a Tory MP (and slave trader)?

There’s a new gang at the top ;)

for example if I love a film made by a director, actor and actresses and they turned out to be a bad person they i cant look at their work not the same way as I used to and I can't help myself but thinking " not you too..."