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To Pay or Not to Pay, that is the question

 

TheEgg

By TheEgg, 1726735383

Now I’m sure this has cropped up before so forgive me if I’m opening old wounds but, as anyone will see who reads my portfolio notes, I neither charge nor pay, ergo I work exclusively TF unless there is a commercial gain for any collaborators.

I appreciate there are many fantastic, professionals (in every sense of the word), who work exclusively for pay and I pay them the due courtesy of not offering them a collab, however there are both models and togs with basic skills who seem to think they can charge (this is mainly models but I have heard of togs with a point and shoot or even phone camera who think they are a resurrected Ansell Adams or David Bailey).

For the purpose of this exercise I’m going to discuss models who work for pay only. These fall into 2 distinct categories

1/. Vast experience or a unique aesthetic 

2/. A little experience and an aesthetic unique to the but not massively different to the thousands of models offering their services.

Those in the first category generally know their strengths and marketability, whilst the second have been told they should be a model but haven’t a clue as to what their USP is often placing their value on what they’ve seen as the market rate and often are disillusioned when reality bites that you have to be special to be a top model getting regular paid work.

It is often the second category I have issue with when it comes to me being a TF photographer. In a previous life I did charge for weddings, baby/pet portraits, etc but use PP to escape the humdrum and just do something for the fun of it yet models often see those togs seeking to collab as cheapskates and timewasters and would rather get no work than compromise and collab, even  route to experience is by working and gaining that experience. They’ll overlook our massive outlay on numerous items of equipment, backdrops, travel expenses eg that lens I invested in specifically for portraiture costing in excess of a grand or even the lens filters costing upwards of £50-£150, yet complain about how much they’ve spent on lingerie from Shein.

There are some great togs, far more talented than I, who can not only produce fabulous imagery for you but also give guidance, mentoring, etc as part of the package. Its a win win situation so many models are missing out on, not to mention the wonderful social interaction and bloody good fun that can be enjoyed.

Unfortunately there will always be the guys with cameras looking for cheap thrills and level pushing along the way but these can (and should) be avoided with due diligence like checking references and just seeing their work standards.

A little collab along the way can do wonders to increase anyone’s skill set and make you a more marketable proposition instead of allowing you to continue to produce the same pretty, but pretty unremarkable images.

Just for the record, when I started, I paid to work with models in order to gain experience in this specialist field.

There are some fantastic models working TF just for the fun of it. There’s no compromising, they’re having fun creating some great images as a result.

Huw said, 1726736721

Nobody cares how much a photographer spends on gear. Its the pictures that count.

One of the best photographers on here - with 600 shoots and 600 FPIs - uses a Canon 450D, kit zoom lens, and a 50/1.8 lens. Models queue up to shoot TF with him.

Like it or not, FPIs count on PP. Achieving an FPI per shoot increases the chance models will shoot TF with one.

Edited by Huw

ANDY00 said, 1726737847

Anyone can ask for payment or TF , but it’s not really up to them to decide if their work is good enough for either—it’s the people they ask that decide. I’ve seen some not-so-nice creatives to work with  put out stunning work and others who are fantastic to work with but produce less-than-impressive results. It’s all subjective. Whether someone’s willing to pay or trade depends on what’s valued in that moment. Creativity’s unpredictable like that; sometimes the work clicks, and sometimes it doesn’t.

Models prefer payed work, photographers do as well but its unlikely and/or rare in a portfolio site for a photographer to be paid by a model

PS: Anyone who thinks they’ve mastered their art—whether it’s photography, modeling, drawing, or anything else—will never improve. I’ve been at this for a loooooong time, doing everything from photography to makeup to catwalk training... and I’m still learning every day.

The principles have always been the same: if you want to work with a creative and can add value to their portfolio at the same or higher quality than they currently have, you can ask for TF (time for). However, if you want to collaborate because they produce work at a much higher quality than what you can currently create, you should be paying them. After all, you're benefiting from their expertise, and they likely won’t use the images if they don't match the standard of work they’re known for. - or at least thats how it should work. 

 

Edited by ANDY00

Huw said, 1726737141

I’m not entirely sure of the purpose of this post?

You don’t pay models, but you are teaching us about models who work for pay only?

Also, you’ve just given everybody a list of models (your 280 references) who presumably shoot TF. Not going to help them get paid work in future.

DJ200 said, 1726737268

Huw said

Nobody cares how much a photographer spends on gear. Its the pictures that count.

One of the best photographers on here - with 600 shoots and 600 FPIs - uses a Canon 450D, kit zoom lens, and a 50/1.8 lens. Models queue up to shoot TF with him.

Like it or not, FPIs count on PP. Achieving an FPI per shoot increases the chance models will shoot TF with one.

Edited by Huw


This.

Feel The Passion said, 1726737783

Nope.

I have read this 4 times now and I don't get the point of the post.

However, there are far more negative points than there are positive ones which, in my experience, usually amounts to a rant.

Why should a model give a shit how much you paid for equipment any more than she should care about how much her plumber paid for his toolbox or her nail technician paid for the nail polish?

If you can offer a model something unique then they may consider TF. Most well established models don't need more free images or a nice day out.

Please do not take offence as non is intended but your post comes over as very self entitled. Is this the attitude that you want to display to potential TF models?


sepiashots said, 1726738351

Huw said

Nobody cares how much a photographer spends on gear. Its the pictures that count.

One of the best photographers on here - with 600 shoots and 600 FPIs - uses a Canon 450D, kit zoom lens, and a 50/1.8 lens. Models queue up to shoot TF with him.

Like it or not, FPIs count on PP. Achieving an FPI per shoot increases the chance models will shoot TF with one.

Edited by Huw


I understand that some of his studio kit is made of bits of cardboard etc. but I suspect it's his snacks and ready wit that they are attracted to.,.

OP: I'm not sure what the question is though... Are you asking whether you should have to pay for these models? My view is if they want money and you want to work with them, then you pay. If you don't want to pay them, then don't work with them.

My own view is that I always pay (the stress of TF is too much for me) and never negotiate the rate either... either they are worth the money they are asking or not (in which case I don't work with them). That said my work rate per year is very low compared to most on this site but that's because of mindset.

Edited by sepiashots

Allesandro B said, 1726738371

it's too early in the day for popcorn so I've opted for a cappuccino and a chocolate digestive....

ANDY00 said, 1726738519

Allesandro B said

it's too early in the day for popcorn so I've opted for a cappuccino and a chocolate digestive....


should definately be a hobnob with coffee, chocolate will melt surely :-D

RaphaelPhoto said, 1726738831

I don't understand the point of the post either, especially considering your conclusion.

Allesandro B said, 1726738870

ANDY00 said

Allesandro B said

it's too early in the day for popcorn so I've opted for a cappuccino and a chocolate digestive....


should definately be a hobnob with coffee, chocolate will melt surely :-D

indeed, in fact a chocolate hobnob would be even better  but I don't have any

indemnity said, 1726739139

Should a model wish to shoot TF, they'll get in touch and make themselves known. How much one spends on equipment is of no importance. There are plenty of photographers on here who are better at charging victims in various other genres for their services than actually performing them. Some popular models who rely on being paid on here do TF, they might not wish that to be known but do it because they either wish to, could be friends or in a relationship with a photographer, or need a particular style and quality to attract further paid work. The photographer should be able to take any subject and produce worthwhile images, that's basically the challenge. It's a huge commitment and challenge for a model to rely on hobbyists to keep them in paid work, damned hard graft too, they deserve all they are paid. My 2p.

Huw said, 1726739443

If one is struggling to get models to shoot TF, this is where one should post….

https://purpleport.com/group/portfolio-review/


The Portrait Cowboy said, 1726740141

I don't shoot a lot, but when I do I try to organise collaborations. For me, I like that somebody sees the quality of my work and wants to work on a project with me and add my images to their portfolio. I think this is potentially why I don't shoot very often 😂

If I wanted to, I could change my policy so that if a model wanted to work with me, they'd have to pay me for my time. I imagine this would likely further impact the number of shoots I could do, but I could do it.

Models are perfectly free to decide who they shoot with, and whether they charge for their time. The more experienced a model is, or the stronger their portfolio, or the more niche or unique their style - they might be inclined to charge more. Their perceived value to photographers based on what they can offer vs how much they charge will directly affect the number of bookings they receive, and it's up to them to manage this based on what they hope to get out of their modelling journey.

For what it's worth, I think that higher levels of photography, such as topless, artistic nude or above, should never be offered TF, regardless of a models potential (in-)experience. What inevitably happens is shit photographers will expect to shoot models in a varying state of undress and produce awful results that look crap on everyone's portfolio. So in fact there are some styles of shooting that really ought to be paid no matter how much experience a model has.

So as to the point of this thread - is this just another photographer publicly complaining that they don't get more TF shoots? Who knows. Either way, it's mostly just hot air and nonsense.

Lenswonder said, 1726740469

I think a lot of people like me are confused about the point of the thread. Perhaps it's just a rant.

indemnity said, 1726740657

Allesandro B said

it's too early in the day for popcorn so I've opted for a cappuccino and a chocolate digestive....


I genuinely opened a packet of triple chocolate chip cookies, strong black coffee to hand, and a cloth ready for the screen.