Deposit resolution

gm7.photography said

Photowallah said

gm7.photography said

I get the principle. But ruining someone's credit score (especially someone like self-employed like a model, many of whom struggle financially) for six years over £40 comes across as extraordinarily petty and vindictive to me. I hope you're proud of yourself.

Same for all the photographers piling in. I despair of the mentality here. Then you're all posting threads about how models don't respond to your castings.

You have got to be kidding. It's up to her whether she ruins her credit rating - this will only occur if she fails to refund the deposit.

I could sympathise with the model - perhaps - if she described it up-front as a "non-refundable" deposit.

Or if the "error" (I'm being kind) had been with the photographer. 

But "updating" (again, being kind) the fees from her side and then declining to return the deposit when the photographer does not agree is not business practice which should be rewarded with acquiescence.

Becoming pretty obvious round here that human empathy is a negative skillset for a photographer to have. I'll work on that.

If I'd have been the OP I'd have sod all empathy for someone who tried to rip me off. 

ThePictureCompany

Depends on your shoot agreement with the model and contract with the studio.

I would forsee that the studio would look at whoever made the booking for payment.

Then, you would be able to look to the model for recompense ... and that could depend on what you've agreed with the model *before* you make the booking with both.

So, if you want to be sure, make it a condition of booking that the model will make you whole should they cancel and you are unable to obtain a replacement.

IANAL

gm7.photography said

"I get the principle. But ruining someone's credit score (especially someone like self-employed like a model, many of whom struggle financially) for six years over £40 comes across as extraordinarily petty and vindictive to me."

Or looked at another way:

"Risking your credit score (especially for someone like self-employed like a model, many of whom struggle financially) for six years over £40 comes across as extraordinarily stupid"

Edited by Somersetman

ThePictureCompany

You may never have had the answer you prefer.

You hire a car, say, to make a journey of 200 miles the following day, however on the day you don't make the journey.

This Hertz a bit, but you don't expect to get the hire company to refund the charge.

Nor, if you paid as one sensibly does, by credit card, will you expect your credit card company to refund on the basis you hired the car for a journey you did not make.

However, you do save on petrol/diesel/electricity, unless you do the other optional thing of making a different journey in the car you bought the exclusive use of.

What's difficult?

gm7.photography said

It's the smug clipboard and a hi-vis "It's my god given right, aren't I clever" of it that bothers me.

This is unfair and quite rude. I guess people want to respond to the unfairness of it and just let the rudeness go unreported.

I mean, even if it was a literal mistake, the model had only just taken the money, and then varied the terms of the contract, which would void any wording about the deposit being non-refundable even if it was there up front. The money should have been quickly returned with an apology, and then everything would have been fine.

It is, as you say, a silly amount of money to get into difficulty over, and yet that, judging by the detail above, is exactly what the model did.

ThePictureCompany said

I only have one problem with deposits and I’ve asked this question before but never had a proper reply.

If I book a model and studio, with cancelation fees then, for example, the model is ill on the day, everything gets cancelled. The studio turn around and say, you owe us 100% payment because you cancelled. Who pays that ?

There are models here who have responded to this situation by compensating photographers if it has been a studio day and even in some other situations. 

But I imagine the answer in practice is that if you book them independently, the model's cancellation fees are irrelevant to the studio, and vice versa, and it's your debit card...

It should tell you all you need to know about "studio day" bookings, though: given the sums often involved you should only be paying one entity and you should get a name and address.

Unfocussed Mike said

gm7.photography said

It's the smug clipboard and a hi-vis "It's my god given right, aren't I clever" of it that bothers me.

This is unfair and quite rude. I guess people want to respond to the unfairness of it and just let the rudeness go unreported.

I mean, even if it was a literal mistake, the model had only just taken the money, and then varied the terms of the contract, which would void any wording about the deposit being non-refundable even if it was there up front. The money should have been quickly returned with an apology, and then everything would have been fine.

It is, as you say, a silly amount of money to get into difficulty over, and yet that, judging by the detail above, is exactly what the model did.

I've known models have £20 to live on half way through the month. While comfortably retired photographers with £10,000 cameras try to knock their rates down. I'm sure the converse is true.

Point being it's endemic of the armchair lawyer, I'm always in the right attitude of the forums to me (the other thread doing the rounds has so much of the same bile).
I don't post a lot for this reason. But this one annoyed me enough.

Edited by gm7.photography

Somersetman said

gm7.photography said

"I get the principle. But ruining someone's credit score (especially someone like self-employed like a model, many of whom struggle financially) for six years over £40 comes across as extraordinarily petty and vindictive to me."

Or looked at another way:

"Risking your credit score (especially for someone like self-employed like a model, many of whom struggle financially) for six years over £40 comes across as extraordinarily stupid"

Edited by Somersetman

A very good way of putting it, I think!

ThePictureCompany said

I only have one problem with deposits and I’ve asked this question before but never had a proper reply.

If I book a model and studio, with cancelation fees then, for example, the model is ill on the day, everything gets cancelled. The studio turn around and say, you owe us 100% payment because you cancelled. Who pays that ?

FWIW, I had a late cancellation last month (the model had health issues) and she offered to compensate me for the hire of my shoot location. Very kind of her. [I did NOT accept, by the way.]

well done had same thing happen maybe i should go down the same road

ThePictureCompany By law, you. It's your contract with the studio and not the models BUT any fair person would compensate you for the costs. I have only cancelled twice on my whole career and once was on a studio day where I work up with gastro and I was so incredibly poorly I was being sick for hours. Not only did I apologize to all photographer and would've compensated any costs if they had set off, but I offered to even reimburse the studio for a full day hire rate for earnings lost.

So it's a dependent on goodwill, and your personal agreement with the model

I'd hate to ever leave someone out of pocket ❤️

gm7.photography said

I get the principle. But ruining someone's credit score (especially someone like self-employed like a model, many of whom struggle financially) for six years over £40 comes across as extraordinarily petty and vindictive to me. I hope you're proud of yourself.

Same for all the photographers piling in. I despair of the mentality here. Then you're all posting threads about how models don't respond to your castings.

gm7.photography said

Photowallah said

gm7.photography said

I get the principle. But ruining someone's credit score (especially someone like self-employed like a model, many of whom struggle financially) for six years over £40 comes across as extraordinarily petty and vindictive to me. I hope you're proud of yourself.

Same for all the photographers piling in. I despair of the mentality here. Then you're all posting threads about how models don't respond to your castings.

You have got to be kidding. It's up to her whether she ruins her credit rating - this will only occur if she fails to refund the deposit.

I could sympathise with the model - perhaps - if she described it up-front as a "non-refundable" deposit.

Or if the "error" (I'm being kind) had been with the photographer. 

But "updating" (again, being kind) the fees from her side and then declining to return the deposit when the photographer does not agree is not business practice which should be rewarded with acquiescence.

Becoming pretty obvious round here that human empathy is a negative skillset for a photographer to have. I'll work on that.

We usually agree on a few things with photography here and there. However, I think here is where we probably won't see eye to eye. 

We had agreed the shoot, date, time, location and fee, before she asked for the deposit.
The day after I had paid it, she messaged to say that she had 'miscalculated' and her fee would be £100 more than agreed.
I refused to agree to an increase and requested the return of my £40 deposit.  She refused, saying "I never return deposits" and blocked me.

Why are we thinking that's ok for a person to do? Especially when another Model has already stated in the thread that this behaviour can and has poisoned the well in terms of models asking for deposits. It sounds like the model decided to keep the deposit because a photographer decided he didn't want to pay even more based on the model's miscalculation...So...that's ok?

Is wanting £40 back petty? Possibly. But I'm not automatically considering the photographer to be some well-off benefactor. However, when things like this arise, the image of an impoverished model is immediately projected. And empathy is to be grafted onto them, despite this example displaying they may not have some basic acumen. I find that odd. But then again when photographers have mentioned things like this in the past the argument back is "You should know better. Hard cheese." 

I think people in the thread have empathy. Just because it's not for the model who thought she could have a deposit for nothing doesn't mean they don't have any. 

What will you spend the extra 18p on?

The view that a lot of models are poor little stupid girls is ridiculous. Most of us are very hard working and clever business women

Edited by Holly Alexander

gm7.photography said

I've known models have £20 to live on half way through the month. While comfortably retired photographers with £10,000 cameras try to knock their rates down. I'm sure the converse is true.

I've also known people with that little money not keeping money they weren't entitled to keep, though. Haven't you?

Small claims courts used to be called the Court of Conscience for very good reason.