Photographers - getting value from paid shoots

Gothic Image you responded to my post, so what was your point ?

Thelema https://purpleport.com/group/general-chat/196546/level-playing-field-/

This thread which OP mentions briefly.

@Golding said

if I paid for a shoot i'd absolutely still give the model some edits, payment or not she's still been part of the creative process and if they used one on their portfolio its going to get a hell of a lot more views than if it was stuck on mine, and that might help me find another little shoot.

I really can't understand this 'I've paid you so you can't have any images' bollocks that so many photographers spout. 

Your failure to understand anything says more about you than about anyone else.  Plus I believe you're misrepresenting what has been said.

If I pay a model for a shoot and then do nothing else with the pictures, she's had her money.  Honour is satisfied.

If I then post a picture from it, I might garner a few pitiful loves, but nothing more.  Still, if that's the validation I was after, then I'm happy.  The model, on the other hand, will either be getting extra benefit from the click-through traffic which will inevitably follow, or (if either I don't tag her or she doesn't accept the tag) get nothing.  Either way, there's nothing but benefit for the model out of that.

Of course, any click-through traffic has the potential to serve as advertising for her to get further paying work.

If she then also posts the same picture, it'll serve as an even more powerful advertisement, from which she'll get measurable extra traffic, and measurable extra shoots.

Of course, the meagre few clicks-through to my portfolio will get me a few views, but nothing more.  Probably not even any more loves.  And certainly no enquiries about shooting, unless they want to charge me top rates.

I speak from experience.  From a transactional perspective, there is zero value to me in a model having pictures, but there is measurable value to her.

Now can you understand a perspective other than your own?

Sensual Art said

@Golding said

if I paid for a shoot i'd absolutely still give the model some edits, payment or not she's still been part of the creative process and if they used one on their portfolio its going to get a hell of a lot more views than if it was stuck on mine, and that might help me find another little shoot.

I really can't understand this 'I've paid you so you can't have any images' bollocks that so many photographers spout. 

Your failure to understand anything says more about you than about anyone else.  Plus I believe you're misrepresenting what has been said.

If I pay a model for a shoot and then do nothing else with the pictures, she's had her money.  Honour is satisfied.

If I then post a picture from it, I might garner a few pitiful loves, but nothing more.  Still, if that's the validation I was after, then I'm happy.  The model, on the other hand, will either be getting extra benefit from the click-through traffic which will inevitably follow, or (if either I don't tag her or she doesn't accept the tag) get nothing.  Either way, there's nothing but benefit for the model out of that.

Of course, any click-through traffic has the potential to serve as advertising for her to get further paying work.

If she then also posts the same picture, it'll serve as an even more powerful advertisement, from which she'll get measurable extra traffic, and measurable extra shoots.

Of course, the meagre few clicks-through to my portfolio will get me a few views, but nothing more.  Probably not even any more loves.  And certainly no enquiries about shooting, unless they want to charge me top rates.

I speak from experience.  From a transactional perspective, there is zero value to me in a model having pictures, but there is measurable value to her.

Now can you understand a perspective other than your own?

Awww well, you carry on doing you, keep your chins up :)

@Golding there's not much to understand Golding, it's just people doing what is their right to do.

You could also look at the concepts of being paid twice or the have your cake and eat it analogy.

Lenswonder said

@Golding there's not much to understand Golding, it's just people doing what is their right to do.

You could also look at the concepts of being paid twice or the have your cake and eat it analogy.

Sure, do what you want, fill your booties. 

I'll carry on giving any model I shoot with my permission to use any of my images containing them to do whatever the hell they like with :)

@Golding and that's your right , as in the contrasting decision it's theirs :)

@Golding said

Awww well, you carry on doing you, keep your chins up :)

@Golding said

Sure, do what you want, fill your booties.

I'll carry on giving any model I shoot with my permission to use any of my images containing them to do whatever the hell they like with :)

There's no need for any attitude here.  People are not telling you that you're wrong for holding your view and doing what you do, but are simply answering your

@Golding said

I really can't understand this ... bollocks

My enjoyment is in the shooting and the post shoot process. I think my main shoots are quite enjoyable due to my choice of shoot locations, the time of year and the models I choose to shoot with. It's never totally the same because a different model may convey a different mood even if shot in the same environment.

Considering I don't shoot much I wouldn't call it a regular thing. Shooting less and choosing the model that works for you is the best route, finding the model that works for me isn't always easy.

There are too many minimum 3-4 hrs, or constant changing rates, so I look for who best works for me.

Who is doing it with an understanding or enjoyment of photography beyond payment. When the conversation is just how much money can be gained from photographer, sure that's an easy route to shoot a model but it's not something I would enjoy today. Of course if the model is full time and that's her main job that's fine but what I'm getting at is that both model and photographer can make choices even if one side may be viewed in general as the A side.

Sensual Art said

@Golding said

Awww well, you carry on doing you, keep your chins up :)

@Golding said

Sure, do what you want, fill your booties.

I'll carry on giving any model I shoot with my permission to use any of my images containing them to do whatever the hell they like with :)

There's no need for any attitude here.  People are not telling you that you're wrong for holding your view and doing what you do, but are simply answering your

@Golding said

I really can't understand this ... bollocks

Lol, to be fair your initial reply wasn't full of any attitude either was it? 

Now I remember why I stayed off the groups when I came back here. I'll slink off again now methinx...

Enjoy your grumbles folks...

If I want to shoot TF then I don't usually have an issue finding a model but then I tend to stick to certain styles that I know will work and get results.

When I book a paid shoot I am often paying for the experience of the model and the free reign to experiment with whatever random creative concept I have, knowing that if I mess it up I don't owe anyone images.. and that's where my value for money is 🤣

Plus I honestly have no issue paying someone to model. It's their income just like I get paid to fanny around on excel and whatnot all day. 😊

wow, noisy room

to keep it clean can we make a few distinctions?

A photographer = someone who makes his/her living taking photographs

A model = someone who makes his/her living being photographed

you can, if you want to make it spicy, define someone who makes a good living, which, for the sake of argument I'll peg at an MP's salary of £ 91,000. Hands up all the REAL photographers in the room

Anyone else? well that's a grey area isn't it. Are you a plumber with a camera? A wannabe living off a family fund, generous partner, comfortable job with plenty of spare time? Here it gets interesting. And as this thread proves, the debate gets furious because the stakes are so low (to paraphrase Henry Kissinger). Is the only tide mark pride and vanity? Does the blinding light of commerce and fickle attention arouse some deeper and more sinister emotion? Is your work valid because you got paid a few quid? Trust me, real photographers (see above) are laughing at you.

PP is an entertainment, a diversion, like readers wives or the Sunday Sport. No one is making a reputation here, if anything, you're throwing a hand grenade into your market value (why do so many togs conceal their identities?) look around you, tits and bums, there's not much to be proud of. The huge mass of PP photographers are living vicariously off the skills and talents of a few dozen extraordinarily accomplished photographers with incredible eyes, who grace this mostly tawdry mess with something special. I know, I'm only here to marvel at the pre-during-and post production professionalism of a bunch of individuals who just floor me with their talent and generosity. These guys, hell, I'd do TFP to be in a room with some of them. Inspiration pure and simple (you know who you are guys)

 I'm a snapper,  I don't want to be paid. I don't care. That's not interesting to me at all. And it shouldn't be to you either, if what you want to do is make better photographs (which usually happens with better, paid for, models) then make better photographs and share them, but FFS don't get petty, it makes you look small. If you've got a great shot 50% of that is the talent in front of your camera, (or in my case 90% is the talent in front of my camera, I've never got a clue, it's always the model that saves it). So pay him/her and feel blessed. 

Very few of us get to turn our passion for cars/fishing/darts into TV stardom and huge cash prizes, and very few of us are prepared to take the risk and make the commitment to do it.

Soooo don't bitch about TFP, just pay the model, say thank you, be gracious, feel pleased with the FPI if you have the chops and you get one, (I have a few, and heavens knows why, my model photography is shite) so move on, keep making snaps, you never know, if it makes you happy you might even win a few more plumbing jobs, 'cause people like to be around happy people.

In the immortal zen words of Purple port ""Take a look and give it some love."

Tim Forest said

wow, noisy room

to keep it clean can we make a few distinctions?

A photographer = someone who makes his/her living taking photographs

A model = someone who makes his/her living being photographed

No.

Extend this out: are you saying that people aren't gardeners unless they do it for a living, artists unless they get paid?

Tim Forest said

PP is an entertainment, a diversion, like readers wives or the Sunday Sport. 

Oh dear.

Unfocussed Mike said

Tim Forest said

wow, noisy room

to keep it clean can we make a few distinctions?

A photographer = someone who makes his/her living taking photographs

A model = someone who makes his/her living being photographed

No.

Extend this out: are you saying that people aren't gardeners unless they do it for a living, artists unless they get paid?

Aren't really in a band unless they have quit their day job

Aren't guitarists unless it's their living

Aren't teachers unless it's their salary

etc.

It's nonsensical.