Photographers - getting value from paid shoots

Tabitha Boydell said

ANDY00 a models commercial rate will be higher than her rate for non commercial

For example, a popular model on here is £400 a day. If you want her to sign a release to use the images commercially (e.g profit from their use) then it doubles. I know this because a photographer asked for a rate to use the images from a workshop commercially. Model may also agree to a profit share instead but because this is never known at the time of the shoot, she may well be better off with her commercial rate.

That’s too broad an interpretation of “commercial” in the context of the modelling industry, surely.

There are several ways to profit, at least in principle, from the use of photographs of a model that do not become “commercial” modelling.

ANDY00 said

Alyssa Taylor said

ANDY00

Because it then becomes commercial and for profit. If a hobbyist who is earning from it is being charged the same as someone who could triple the money into profit, its not fair on any parties

Most platforms require an explicit release form from models to allow you to sell the images. I know bentbox and OnlyFans definitely do and if the other party reports usage without a contract signed, the seller gets banned and money does not get released

I know in legalities, a photographer owns the copyright and can essentially do what they want with it. But it is courtesy to be honest about your intentions if it's for sale and it's also fair for someone to then expect commercial rates to be paid for commercial work.

Any paid shoot is commercial.

Not necessarily so, from the model’s perspective. It’s important to keep in mind that commercial modelling usually involves an additional consideration: the time-limited or distribution-limited rights to the model’s likeness to imply an endorsement of a thing for sale that isn’t the photograph itself (or in most cases the services of the photographer).

An editorial image, an art print, photos in a photography book or training material, etc., can be sold without the model’s agreement. It's not what an agency would call "commercial" modelling, and in general the routes to selling those images don't ask for or require a release.

The half-and-half world is stock photography agencies, where they might ask for a release regardless because some of the uses may end up being commercial, not just editorial.

We should be careful not to interpret "paid" as "commercial". Many things that people get paid for are not commercial activities.

Edited by Unfocussed Mike

ANDY00 said

Gothic Image said

ANDY00 said

Any paid shoot is commercial. A TF shoot is non-commercial unless agreed otherwise. Commercial means a paid service—if a photographer pays a model, the model is on a commercial job. If someone pays for the photographer's work, they have created a commercial product. Likewise, if a model sells images on another platform, that’s also commercial.

The meaning of "commercial" referred to here means a shoot where the resulting images are sold to a third party, it has nothing to do with TF or paid. See the previous comments about models increasing their rates for commercial work?

I strongly disagree. Yes, selling images is commercial, but being paid for a shoot is also commercial. 'Commercial' just means something is monetized for any reason—a paid model is commercial, a sold image is commercial, a pay-per-view  is commercial. If someone is making money, then it’s commercialized. Simply stating how you believe it should be interpreted doesn’t change the actual definition.

Selling images: When a photographer or model sells an image, it is considered a commercial activity because money is exchanged for the product (the image). and liable for taxation

Paid shoots: When a model is paid for their time and work on a shoot, that also qualifies as a commercial transaction. It’s an exchange of services for monetary compensation, making it commercial. and liable for taxation

Agreed, but that's not what is meant here - read the other replies. Simply stating how you believe it should be interpreted doesn’t change the actual definition. :-)

Danger-Shan said

Pablo Gerrard the question you have to ask yourself is … Why?

Why do you shoot images ?

Why does a model want to ‘shoot with you’ or any other photographer

When I shoot, I am taking time out of a very busy schedule to indulge my creative side. So the question of working with an amateur model who would work for Free (TF) does not arise at all… In fact there is no way I could plan a day of creativity with someone who has not demonstrated incredible ability to create thoughtful images. What I shoot needs travel, needs physical hardship (sometimes) to get 4-5 images that are outstanding and tell a story.

I also refuse to pay models by the hour and insist on a full day flat rate or multiple day rate in case the model is traveling with me. Again to make sure that the model is focused on creating amazing content, in place of looking at her watch.

I also always insist on paying for outright control/commercial rights to images because I never know if I would like (later in life) hold an exhibition of images or sell prints…

For me - working with a TF model is a non starter and PP is just an outlet to showcase my creative side with like minded people. If PP became IG, I would leave.

I do think we need more discussion on images in PP, but otherwise I love this site.

As far as profiting from a series of images is concerned - the only regular outlet that I can think I of for you, would be OnlyFans or Patreon, and what will sell is basically porn, nothing artistic for imaginative, will sell on there

Shan

Edited by Danger-Shan

That's interesting! Well you clearly have a creative vision for your shoots and in that situation you're probably not going to get what you want unless you're working with a professional model. My shoots are very much unplanned though which is why TF works for me. I like every shoot to be a collaboration between two people who have equal status - we are both there to create the images that we would like to have and nobody is working for anybody.

Firstly if you've managed to shoot the models on your port tf then bravo! You have shot with some fantastic models.

You've hit the nail on the head though, if there are full time models either UK or Eastern/Northern Europe based "names" you want to shoot with then you are going to have to stump up. It's their living and they get all the top quality images they need for free (whilst being paid)

So that's your choice.

Why do I shoot because I love all aspects from the planning, the creative process of shooting, the challenge, the editing and then looking at the finished product and thinking I'm happy with that.

I do it for me, I couldn't give a flying pluck what the "ew you shoot nakeed ladies brigade" here or anywhere else think, or the camera snobs or the "that doesn't follow the rule of thirds" crowd or the sneering "oh gosh no, in the commercial photography world that would never happen" bullshitters (who shoot once a year if they are lucky) say.

I agree about an outlet, the censorship on Instagram is appalling. I keep thinking I ought to try one of the platforms like model society but never get around to it.

I am in the process of creating a coffee table book for me and I want to print some images to hang but I need to plan a couple of shoots with that explicit goal in mind. 

So in summary it's my version of being creative.

Huw said

Only Fans release form:

https://social-rise.com/blog/onlyfans-release-form

This only verifies for OnlyFans that they are legally of age to produce or participate in “appearing” in the content and doesn’t actually have any legal status with regards to uploading content owned by someone else (such as the photographer) who owns all the legal release rights under copyright laws.

If I did a TF shoot for example and stipulate the images are not to be reprinted, sold, or exchanged for financial reward in an agreement even a verbal one the person who then uploads it is in violation of copyright and could easily find themselves facing the prospect of legal action being taken against them and even face having to compensate the photographer including for costs.

JME Studios said

I do give pictures away because as Huw alluded to, a picture on a model account will garner more attention than one on a photographer account.

But that probably does kill TF off a bit.

Absolutely, if I paid for a shoot i'd absolutely still give the model some edits, payment or not she's still been part of the creative process and if they used one on their portfolio its going to get a hell of a lot more views than if it was stuck on mine, and that might help me find another little shoot.

I really can't understand this 'I've paid you so you can't have any images' bollocks that so many photographers spout. 

Edited by @Golding

Tabitha Boydell said

The Ghost this

Doesn’t really affect the issue that is commonly occurring of models posting copyright work online without permission of the photographer and how many models would be willing to pay extra for commercial usage rights of the images? For example if I as a photographer was to say I wanted a fee of £2000 for a shoot so as to provide release rights to post on sites like OF how many models would be willing to just dishonestly fail to disclose their intent and then just upload the images they received?

Intiem_Photography said

Tabitha Boydell said

The Ghost this

Doesn’t really affect the issue that is commonly occurring of models posting copyright work online without permission of the photographer and how many models would be willing to pay extra for commercial usage rights of the images? For example if I as a photographer was to say I wanted a fee of £2000 for a shoot so as to provide release rights to post on sites like OF how many models would be willing to just dishonestly fail to disclose their intent and then just upload the images they received?

Perhaps you'd better ask them in a thread that can't only be seen by photographers?

Intiem_Photography said

Tabitha Boydell said

The Ghost this

Doesn’t really affect the issue that is commonly occurring of models posting copyright work online without permission of the photographer and how many models would be willing to pay extra for commercial usage rights of the images? For example if I as a photographer was to say I wanted a fee of £2000 for a shoot so as to provide release rights to post on sites like OF how many models would be willing to just dishonestly fail to disclose their intent and then just upload the images they received?

How do you know they don't have permission to post images on their OF? Or anywhere else for that matter? 

Personally I don't hold myself in such a regard that I would get my panties in a twist if a model used any of my images on their OF, infact I make a point of telling them they can use them wherever they like.

Its just a photograph. Its not life or death.

@Golding said

JME Studios said

I do give pictures away because as Huw alluded to, a picture on a model account will garner more attention than one on a photographer account.

But that probably does kill TF off a bit.

Absolutely, if I paid for a shoot i'd absolutely still give the model some edits, payment or not she's still been part of the creative process and if they used one on their portfolio its going to get a hell of a lot more views than if it was stuck on mine, and that might help me find another little shoot.

I really can't understand this 'I've paid you so you can't have any images' bollocks that so many photographers spout. 

 

Agreed.

Paul Gerrard yes, that's it - it is a challenge working your way up the league so to speak, but once your there you can unlock the value and and share it with others. you might not post the photos anywhere yourself but the models will if you've made a success of it so I think that's a good reward for your efforts. all the capital expenditure and investment will pay off and who knows, when you're at the top of the league you might even get offered pay!! so there's always room to grow and get more reward :)

Gothic Image your point ?

Gothic Image said

Intiem_Photography said

Tabitha Boydell said

The Ghost this

Doesn’t really affect the issue that is commonly occurring of models posting copyright work online without permission of the photographer and how many models would be willing to pay extra for commercial usage rights of the images? For example if I as a photographer was to say I wanted a fee of £2000 for a shoot so as to provide release rights to post on sites like OF how many models would be willing to just dishonestly fail to disclose their intent and then just upload the images they received?

Perhaps you'd better ask them in a thread that can't only be seen by photographers?

Let’s be honest with ourselves here as we don’t need to ask any model as we already know the answer will be no for most of the OF content creators whose target market is generally no that concerned about the quality of the image as long as they get their “supply of T&A, etc.”

I don’t think OF and similar sites are aimed at those who appreciate high standard images but more aimed at providing a platform for “creators/models/artists” to mass sell graphic images to gullible people who are happy being exploited so “creators” and site owners can pocket money for doing little other than existing. 

Lenswonder said

Gothic Image your point ?

Yours?