Photographers - getting value from paid shoots

Here's my view on it all...I paid models and that was to run model days via studio, paid models when there has been little to no hope of any images being forthcoming, that's been testing equipment or something else. I shoot TF, happy for model to monetise any images and do not require payment.

I've been paid to shoot, fashion shows overseas (on film), product (digital), some landscape etc (years ago on film).

Been offered payment for port work from members on here, did it but refused payment, happy doing it TF or for fun, doesn't matter.

I just enjoy TF now, and whatever that costs me in clothes (new stuff and given after shoot, travel, equipment, or whatever) that's my opportunity cost.

Also worth considering is the fact that some photographers are happy paying a model and giving images, so no need for TF. Models do TF and end up disappointed with crap images not even as good as they can take themselves with a phone, or don't get any. I also think that high level OF etc is a good thing, if a model has decided that's something they're comfortable with then those who are just after skin pics can obtain them that way, no need to mask their needs within photography.

Horses for courses, it's not a one size fits all situation, everyone is different.

As far as OP is concerned crack on going abroad, there are dozens of suitable 'models' everywhere in sunny climes, I know having lived overseas and travelled quite a lot...just ask, simples.

Chris Green said

From the other thread, I get the impression that TFP was more common many years ago - ie around half a century ago. I guess that made sense back then, when models didn’t have iPhones and it was expensive for a photographer to print photos in a darkroom etc.

The reason TFP is less common now is that most models just starting out already have some great iPhone photos of themselves so they don’t really need photos for their portfolio. And unless you’re offering something truly exceptional as a photographer, I’m not clear why an experienced model would want to give their time for free in exchange for photos - particularly as giving the model the photos incurs no marginal cost for the photographer.

I’m not against TFP as it’s great if it works for both parties but, as the OP has found, I’m just not clear why experienced models would want to work pro bono. Barristers often work pro bono, but generally only for a cause they believe in for a client with limited funds. However, my impression is that the balance of economic power is the opposite in this industry (ie I sense that the average photographer is many times more wealthy than the average model), so the case for models working for free is less compelling.

That’s essentially why I would be uncomfortable working TFP. I’m much happier paying a professional model to do their job.

Not everything in this world is related to money. 

Some people do stuff simply because they enjoy it. 

I do give pictures away because as Huw alluded to, a picture on a model account will garner more attention than one on a photographer account.

But that probably does kill TF off a bit.

JME Studios said

I do give pictures away because as Huw alluded to, a picture on a model account will garner more attention than one on a photographer account.

But that probably does kill TF off a bit.

I do agree with this, but I would add—and I don't know if it's the cause—but these days, it seems like photographers are mostly the only ones looking through and commenting on pictures, or at least the larger percentage anyway. Models tend to only post to their own portfolios or respond to paid casting calls. It used to be that models would like and comment on photographers' images when they were interested in doing portfolio shoots with them, but that trend seems to have faded away with the free images from paid shoots. again though just an opinion and im not 100% sure if thats what changed it. 

The industry has always been changeable like the weather, you just follow the flow :-) 

Edited by ANDY00

You’re right Orson Carter . I also enjoy my job, but not so much that I’d be happy working for nothing.

Chris Green said

You’re right Orson Carter . I also enjoy my job, but not so much that I’d be happy working for nothing.

I used to get paid to work.

But if there was something that I wanted to do just for the sheer enjoyment of it, and if I had the time to do it, I did it for fun. 

Paul Gerrard

So my question to all photographers who are regularly paying models for shoots is how do you feel you're getting your money's worth from it?

- How regular is regular? personally based on how many shoots I do, and when I get paid requests. It balances itself out at times.

Are you just enjoying the creative process of the shoot, the editing etc. and the personal satisfaction of looking at your completed work?

- Yes. I try and do my best to work with a model and get some of their character out. But also try and shoot something that they enjoyed shooting/liked seeing as an end product.

Is sharing on PP or Instagram with the associated engagement your endgame? Or are there any other sharing sites, Flickr, Twitter etc that are working well for you?

- They are not necessarily the end game but they are all tools that have helped me with paid work.

Or other outlets like prints, photobooks, exhibitions, magazine publications, that are perhaps more satisfying as a final output?

- Making my own photobook would be the aim. My issue currently is audience.

ANDY00 said

Tabitha Boydell said

ANDY00 a models commercial rate will be higher than her rate for non commercial...

Firstly, if you hire a model for a shoot, you own the copyright to the images—you don’t need a release to sell them. ..

...if a model raises there rates becasue a photographer may make money chance are that creative will look elsewhere

Your right to sell may not be matched by a willingness to buy, from a commercial entity.

If it is anything like advertising, then the rules are more extensive.

If the model has their rates accurately set, then the photographer would do well to carry on looking there.  It isn't random avarice. 

Orson Carter said

The value for me is enjoyment. 

I get a massive amount of enjoyment from spending a day collaborating (in a 'collaboration of ideas' sense) with a good, creative model. And as a lot of the models on the circuit are very lovely, very  active people with a wide range of skills and interests, that adds to the enjoyment. 

I've said it before but I'll say it again.. I bl**dy love this hobby. I can't put a price on the sheer enjoyment I get from it. 

Edited by Orson Carter

Well same here - I do enjoy the overall process from finding models, planning shoots all the way through to the editing and finished product. It's what to do with the finished product is my question really! And actually another reason I prefer doing TF is that if a model wants to shoot with me it probably means she likes my work enough to share the resulting photos on her instagram. Models generally get a lot more engagement than I do, so I do get a bit of a buzz if a photo gets a good reaction when the model posts it.

If you feel someone else owes you something or you somehow have a right to comment on third party shoot arrangements then it's time to appraise whether it is a hobby for you.

Anyone who actually enjoys some form of non model photography would be very unlikely to either ask such questions or be unable to work out how and what they enjoy.

It does seem the addition of models seems to create all sorts of expectations and difficulties.

You could of course just view them as an opportunity to create something you may not see every day in a way you want.

If you expect someone to do that for fun, then you may need to realise that others may not be completely sold

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Lenswonder said

Everyone goes on about the elves but elves can't even merge this thread with a similar one already going.

Possibly because it's nothing to do with the Elves?  :-)

parkway said

Paul Gerrard great question and post. for me, its all about having a valuable and useable skill to hand that you can pretty much take anywhere. at the moment i would liken my abilities to that of novice or amateur / hobbyist so I'm still learning but in terms of value its something that you can create in your work, even if it doesn't get published or go anywhere I think it's still good to have the skills and abilities of an accomplished photographer. with that you can create amazing images for anyone. and perhaps enrich people's life and experience in the process which surely is a good thing.

Edited by parkway

Yeah I'd agree with this too! I do enjoy trying to improve my skills and as I generally shoot in real world locations rather than a studio every shoot is a challenge trying to get the best out of whatever is there. I actually shot a wedding this year for a friend and my experience shooting models was definitely a big help in terms of just knowing what to do in every situation that presented itself throughout the day.

And another big reason that I shoot only TF is that I've been enjoying the challenge of trying to work my way up the league as it were - as I've improved over the years I've been able to get the attention of models who wouldn't have been interested previously and it's like new level unlocked in a video game! :)

ANDY00 said

Any paid shoot is commercial. A TF shoot is non-commercial unless agreed otherwise. Commercial means a paid service—if a photographer pays a model, the model is on a commercial job. If someone pays for the photographer's work, they have created a commercial product. Likewise, if a model sells images on another platform, that’s also commercial.

The meaning of "commercial" referred to here means a shoot where the resulting images are sold to a third party, it has nothing to do with TF or paid. See the previous comments about models increasing their rates for commercial work?

Gothic Image said

ANDY00 said

Any paid shoot is commercial. A TF shoot is non-commercial unless agreed otherwise. Commercial means a paid service—if a photographer pays a model, the model is on a commercial job. If someone pays for the photographer's work, they have created a commercial product. Likewise, if a model sells images on another platform, that’s also commercial.

The meaning of "commercial" referred to here means a shoot where the resulting images are sold to a third party, it has nothing to do with TF or paid. See the previous comments about models increasing their rates for commercial work?

I strongly disagree. Yes, selling images is commercial, but being paid for a shoot is also commercial. 'Commercial' just means something is monetized for any reason—a paid model is commercial, a sold image is commercial, a pay-per-view  is commercial. If someone is making money, then it’s commercialized. Simply stating how you believe it should be interpreted doesn’t change the actual definition.

Selling images: When a photographer or model sells an image, it is considered a commercial activity because money is exchanged for the product (the image). and liable for taxation

Paid shoots: When a model is paid for their time and work on a shoot, that also qualifies as a commercial transaction. It’s an exchange of services for monetary compensation, making it commercial. and liable for taxation