Photographers - getting value from paid shoots

US 2257

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2257

ANDY00

Because it then becomes commercial and for profit. If a hobbyist who is earning from it is being charged the same as someone who could triple the money into profit, its not fair on any parties

Most platforms require an explicit release form from models to allow you to sell the images. I know bentbox and OnlyFans definitely do and if the other party reports usage without a contract signed, the seller gets banned and money does not get released

I know in legalities, a photographer owns the copyright and can essentially do what they want with it. But it is courtesy to be honest about your intentions if it's for sale and it's also fair for someone to then expect commercial rates to be paid for commercial work.

Tabitha Boydell said

If you’re going to sell images you’ll probably find rates go up accordingly though

@Golding said

I hear part of what you are saying, TF has for the most part (for me anyway) fallen off a cliff. And there are well known factors for that which I totally understand. Also, I don't make a habit of asking models for TF, I just hope that sometimes they see a few images of mine they like and will contact me. It happens but only occasionally, and I don't think i'm a particularly shit photographer even. I think most photographers have found this since Covid and the cost of living disaster.

I've also reverted to a free member here because the amount of models in my area is just shocking. So many haven't logged in for half a year or more. I don't really see the point of paying for a site that is happy to leave accounts up that have been untouched for years in an attempt to make the site look busy.

Insta is just about dead, since I lost my account about 8 months ago and I had to start again i've been permanently shadow-banned, so only those who know me actually know I am there. Its rare I get a message on there to shoot either.

I am though, in the enviable position in the fact that my girlfriend is one of the most well known models on this site, so I usually have someone to practice on if I really want to shoot. I have no rights to grumble if I can't find anyone else to work with really.

What shocks me about your post though, is this line, I am increasingly finding that the models I really want to shoot with work for pay only and also any of the top UK/international models on PP that tour Ireland are expecting to be paid too so I haven't been working with any of them  and I'm honestly a tad shocked. Do you really expect a professional model to tour Ireland and be working TF with all the work and expense it entails them? 

And no, there are very few photographers out there making a living from shooting models, its a luxury really isn't it? It matters not what we have spent on kit, thats our choice at the end of the day and it doesn't mean a model has to work with us. You could try Patreon I guess, but you need a following, and you need to be posting content that can't be seen elsewhere for free. That alone would drive me nuts, knowing I have some great images I want to share but holding them back for an occasional fiver a month from someone.

I just read your post again and realised this was aimed at photographers who regularly pay for shoots and that isn't me, but even if it was, if I was enjoying my hobby then it would be a good thing, it doesn't have to have some sort of financial reward does it?

It seems like your idea of little trips to Italy to shoot is something to look into though. Am going to look into that!

You have some lovely images on your portfolio though (particularly the mono work), but so do many photographers, and any decent model shooting TF is going to be considering just who they give their time to very carefully indeed I think.

Edited by @Golding

"Do you really expect a professional model to tour Ireland and be working TF with all the work and expense it entails them?"  No of course I don't! My point is just that by limiting myself to TF I am also limiting the models I can shoot with. I'm not saying for a moment that more models should do TF - I'm just trying to understand what other photographers feel they are getting from paid shoots to make them worthwhile. I was enjoying instagram for a long time but I'm enjoying it less and less lately! 

And yeah I'd definitely recommend Italy! There's a thriving model photography scene, particularly in the North and they seem to have a very healthy ratio of beautiful models to photographers.

Huw said

Only Fans release form:

https://social-rise.com/blog/onlyfans-release-form

Any photographers want to put their hands up if a model has ever asked you to sign a release so they can sell the images you let them use from shoots on onlyfans ? I can't see anyone...hello?

If they did, the photographer would likely want payment because, unlike models, the copyright owner (the photographer) is entitled to monetary gain for the commercial use of images. Models, not so much—unless they created the content themselves, which is why they don’t ask…

ANDY00 I was offered to use them by a photographer a few times and multiple signed a release form for me and were sent 50% profit (they didn't even ask for a share)

Please don't put us all under the same umbrella and demonise us all 😆

Paul Gerrard great question and post. for me, its all about having a valuable and useable skill to hand that you can pretty much take anywhere. at the moment i would liken my abilities to that of novice or amateur / hobbyist so I'm still learning but in terms of value its something that you can create in your work, even if it doesn't get published or go anywhere I think it's still good to have the skills and abilities of an accomplished photographer. with that you can create amazing images for anyone. and perhaps enrich people's life and experience in the process which surely is a good thing.

Edited by parkway

Alyssa Taylor said

ANDY00

Because it then becomes commercial and for profit. If a hobbyist who is earning from it is being charged the same as someone who could triple the money into profit, its not fair on any parties

Most platforms require an explicit release form from models to allow you to sell the images. I know bentbox and OnlyFans definitely do and if the other party reports usage without a contract signed, the seller gets banned and money does not get released

I know in legalities, a photographer owns the copyright and can essentially do what they want with it. But it is courtesy to be honest about your intentions if it's for sale and it's also fair for someone to then expect commercial rates to be paid for commercial work.

Any paid shoot is commercial. A TF shoot is non-commercial unless agreed otherwise. Commercial means a paid service—if a photographer pays a model, the model is on a commercial job. If someone pays for the photographer's work, they have created a commercial product. Likewise, if a model sells images on another platform, that’s also commercial.

You set a rate for your work, someone hires you, and they own the copyright to the images. It’s their property to sell if they wish, and that doesn’t change the original rate you agreed upon. For example, if a photographer hires a model for a commercial shoot ie - (paid shoot) and later sells the images for use in an ad campaign, the model doesn’t get additional payment unless it was agreed beforehand. The agreed-upon rate covers the model's time and service, and the photographer retains the right to use or sell the images as they see fit. thats just how it is

Alyssa Taylor said

ANDY00 I was offered to use them by a photographer a few times and multiple signed a release form for me and were sent 50% profit (they didn't even ask for a share)

Please don't put us all under the same umbrella and demonise us all 😆

im not demonising anyone, just pointing out how it works, if you got permission you are in the minority but thats really impressive :-) 

ANDY00 said.   Like models with OnlyFans ? Or Patreon ? Or any of the countless other platforms now, like X, Live, etc.? None of these platforms require release forms.

Huw said

Only Fans release form:

https://social-rise.com/blog/onlyfans-release-form

If you want to shoot with models then you need to go with the trend changes. There are so many photographers out there so models want to be paid and that is currently the market. Although not many models will reply, quite a number will read. Anyone model knocking will reduce the chances of shooting with them. There is still TF but not with established models. Last summer in Greece I had 3 TF shoots with girls who were not models, just by talking generally they all asked me to shoot.

ANDY00 said

Tabitha Boydell said

ANDY00 a models commercial rate will be higher than her rate for non commercial

For example, a popular model on here is £400 a day. If you want her to sign a release to use the images commercially (e.g profit from their use) then it doubles. I know this because a photographer asked for a rate to use the images from a workshop commercially. Model may also agree to a profit share instead but because this is never known at the time of the shoot, she may well be better off with her commercial rate.

The extra fee is rightly charged, in my opinion. If it was work for a brand in the ‘real world’ and not the PP bubble then you’d be looking at that rate PLUS a buyout of 1-2k or even more depending on usage. One car brand that I know of, advertised a job with a 20k buyout

Firstly, if you hire a model for a shoot, you own the copyright to the images—you don’t need a release to sell them. Secondly, many models do paid work and receive images, which they then sell on platforms like OnlyFans and Patreon without lowering their rates or obtaining written consent from the photographer. A shoot is a shoot: if you pay a model, you own the copyright and can use the images as you see fit. There’s no expectation to disclose how the images will be used after the shoot

The Ghost said

ANDY00 said

Tabitha Boydell said

ANDY00 a models commercial rate will be higher than her rate for non commercial

For example, a popular model on here is £400 a day. If you want her to sign a release to use the images commercially (e.g profit from their use) then it doubles. I know this because a photographer asked for a rate to use the images from a workshop commercially. Model may also agree to a profit share instead but because this is never known at the time of the shoot, she may well be better off with her commercial rate.

The extra fee is rightly charged, in my opinion. If it was work for a brand in the ‘real world’ and not the PP bubble then you’d be looking at that rate PLUS a buyout of 1-2k or even more depending on usage. One car brand that I know of, advertised a job with a 20k buyout

Firstly, if you hire a model for a shoot, you own the copyright to the images—you don’t need a release to sell them. Secondly, many models do paid work and receive images, which they then sell on platforms like OnlyFans and Patreon without lowering their rates or obtaining written consent from the photographer. A shoot is a shoot: if you pay a model, you own the copyright and can use the images as you see fit. There’s no expectation to disclose how the images will be used after the shoot

All true but good luck getting a commercial entity to pay you for images without a release. Also good luck finding anyone to work with you after breaching the first person’s trust - people talk.

Absolutely, he'd have no chance working with ♥ Chiara Elisabetta for example because I'm fairly sure he wouldn't like the photographer release she would require him to sign.

She, and any other models absolutely have the right to dictate what sites their images do and don't appear on. They also are perfectly entitled to ask for a higher rate for commercial work.

And yes, thankfully models talk.

@Golding said

ANDY00 said

Tabitha Boydell said

ANDY00 a models commercial rate will be higher than her rate for non commercial

For example, a popular model on here is £400 a day. If you want her to sign a release to use the images commercially (e.g profit from their use) then it doubles. I know this because a photographer asked for a rate to use the images from a workshop commercially. Model may also agree to a profit share instead but because this is never known at the time of the shoot, she may well be better off with her commercial rate.

The extra fee is rightly charged, in my opinion. If it was work for a brand in the ‘real world’ and not the PP bubble then you’d be looking at that rate PLUS a buyout of 1-2k or even more depending on usage. One car brand that I know of, advertised a job with a 20k buyout

Firstly, if you hire a model for a shoot, you own the copyright to the images—you don’t need a release to sell them. Secondly, many models do paid work and receive images, which they then sell on platforms like OnlyFans and Patreon without lowering their rates or obtaining written consent from the photographer. A shoot is a shoot: if you pay a model, you own the copyright and can use the images as you see fit. There’s no expectation to disclose how the images will be used after the shoot

The Ghost said

ANDY00 said

Tabitha Boydell said

ANDY00 a models commercial rate will be higher than her rate for non commercial

For example, a popular model on here is £400 a day. If you want her to sign a release to use the images commercially (e.g profit from their use) then it doubles. I know this because a photographer asked for a rate to use the images from a workshop commercially. Model may also agree to a profit share instead but because this is never known at the time of the shoot, she may well be better off with her commercial rate.

The extra fee is rightly charged, in my opinion. If it was work for a brand in the ‘real world’ and not the PP bubble then you’d be looking at that rate PLUS a buyout of 1-2k or even more depending on usage. One car brand that I know of, advertised a job with a 20k buyout

Firstly, if you hire a model for a shoot, you own the copyright to the images—you don’t need a release to sell them. Secondly, many models do paid work and receive images, which they then sell on platforms like OnlyFans and Patreon without lowering their rates or obtaining written consent from the photographer. A shoot is a shoot: if you pay a model, you own the copyright and can use the images as you see fit. There’s no expectation to disclose how the images will be used after the shoot

All true but good luck getting a commercial entity to pay you for images without a release. Also good luck finding anyone to work with you after breaching the first person’s trust - people talk.

Absolutely, he'd have no chance working with ♥ Chiara Elisabetta for example because I'm fairly sure he wouldn't like the photographer release she would require him to sign.

She, and any other models absolutely have the right to dictate what sites their images do and don't appear on. They also are perfectly entitled to ask for a higher rate for commercial work.

And yes, thankfully models talk.

Models always have the right to choose who to work with—did I say otherwise? I also clearly mentioned 'unless agreed otherwise,' which would be covered in a pre-release. So, your comment is totally irrelevant to anything I’ve said.

Listen, you can try to demonize me all you like, but when you organize a shoot—any shoot—you agree to terms with the model beforehand and a fee for there time and service. If, by some chance, you get the opportunity to showcase that work for commercial gain (unless it was pre-agreed otherwise), as the copyright holder, you don’t need to go back to the model for permission (legally speaking). Sure, most photographers will mention it to the model out of courtesy, but it’s by choice, not a legal requirement.

The other side of that coin is if a model receives free images from a paid shoot (which many do these days), and later has the chance to monetize them, many will do so without informing the copyright owner. That’s just the way it is nowadays. As someone mentioned earlier, you just go with the trends of the time.

I don’t do any commercial work anymore, so it’s not even a concern of mine. But to suggest that if there’s a slim chance you might sell an image in the distant future, you need to raise the model's rate pre-shoot? That’s crazy. Nobody can predict the future… 

Edited by ANDY00

JME Studios said

@Golding I'm in a similar position now. I've just done a search for under 30, shoot topless, 20 miles and logged in during the last fortnight.

That takes in Leicester, Coventry, the university town of Loughborough and the east of Birmingham.

Six models.

Take "last logged" off? 53.

We are in our Autumn era.

Its pretty shocking isn't it. 

Thankfully I could now afford an occasional shoot with a model, but i'm doing my best to save to go on a bit of a travel next year so I'm going to need that dough to survive.

Its ok though, I have a few lovely model friends who still occasionally like to entertain a faf about shoot with me so I am enormously grateful for that, and I tried a little street photography recently and actually asked some strangers if I could photograph them, which considering I seem to be getting more socially awkward as I get older I was surprised I had the balls to ask, but I got a few great images from that!

From the other thread, I get the impression that TFP was more common many years ago - ie around half a century ago. I guess that made sense back then, when models didn’t have iPhones and it was expensive for a photographer to print photos in a darkroom etc.

The reason TFP is less common now is that most models just starting out already have some great iPhone photos of themselves so they don’t really need photos for their portfolio. And unless you’re offering something truly exceptional as a photographer, I’m not clear why an experienced model would want to give their time for free in exchange for photos - particularly as giving the model the photos incurs no marginal cost for the photographer.

I’m not against TFP as it’s great if it works for both parties but, as the OP has found, I’m just not clear why experienced models would want to work pro bono. Barristers often work pro bono, but generally only for a cause they believe in for a client with limited funds. However, my impression is that the balance of economic power is the opposite in this industry (ie I sense that the average photographer is many times more wealthy than the average model), so the case for models working for free is less compelling.

That’s essentially why I would be uncomfortable working TFP. I’m much happier paying a professional model to do their job.

Lenswonder which thread?