Level playing field.
Orson Carter said, 1729335196
Keira Lavelle said
That's all well and good, although it has been mentioned earlier in this thread (and indeed it's the case for a lot of photographer friends of mine who actively choose to pay) that one of the main incentives to choose paid shoots is simply relieving the pressure of delivering goods of a certain standard after the event. 🙂 One can enjoy their hobby free of expectations, but it doesn't mean a photographer doesn't still love the collaborative value and feels happy when all involved have achieved something very special and wish to celebrate it by reposting (off the back the photographer's contentment). 💖 Usually it's something they have edited for themselves anyway so it's not really any skin off their back.🤷♀️
For the theory you suggested to seriously work; you would have to have a far larger community of photographers who feel stronger about "keeping the bitches in check!" than just enjoying their hobby in a happy and relaxed fashion. And to be honest, if there's a stronger incentive to keeping pesky models in their place over the love for creating nice pictures, then it's probably better spending the money on therapy sessions rather than photography. 🙈 (I don't know... They allowed women to have credit cards and bank accounts and see what chaos it's led to?!?!?!) 😂
Yep. Pesky models. Butting in - and without having asked permission. Pah!
These damn women - they spend time online when they probably haven't finished the housework. Pah!
Lenswonder said, 1729335635
nikontogf I think some have gave your comments a bit of a nastier edge than read. Something you have to expect when making a thread.
JPea said, 1729336350
Holly Alexander
The impression I get from Holly Alexander is that if you wish to do TF totally or partially you must approach it in the same way that you would run business.
This is what I have always thought.
Not a lit of fun.
Edited by JPea
Holly Alexander said, 1729336777
JPea oh it's still a lot of fun! That's the main reason to do TF for the fun and passion of it :)
Allesandro B said, 1729336840
JPea said
Holly Alexander
The impression I get from Holly Alexander is that if you wish to do TF totally or partially you must approach it in the same way that you would run business.
This is what I have always thought.
Not a lit of fun.
Edited by JPea
I don't think that's necessarily the case JPea. I mostly pay (and am happy to do so because I don't expect models to give up their time for nothing if it's their full time job and I have complete freedom to shoot what I want when I want) but have done some TF and every time I've done it they have pretty much been serendipitous moments where the model just loves modelling and creating images, it isn't their full time job, they have liked what I shoot and they have been happy to just let me give them finished images (even though I've offered to upload so they can select). It doesn't happen very often but when it does it's great.
Lenswonder said, 1729338679
I think it depends what you want tfp for. If you want tfp for artnudes though some photographers make such claims it's probably rare. If you want tfp for a fashion based project though some models do want to be paid for it, this is probably more achievable as tfp at the current time.
Edited by Lenswonder
Keira Lavelle said, 1729340830
JPea said
I am having difficulty in imagining how anyone would keep you in check Keira!
And my bleeding and bruised body is testament to the way you get me to volunteer images after our shoots.
Seriously, everything you say is spot on.
(This last post was a bit short???!!!?)
Don't worry John! I'll make sure I pack this in preparation for Portugal. 😉
100% though, thinking about that day I had you scaling the cliff face on that treacherous track down to the beach treasures below... 😅 Followed by the excitement of seeing our efforts fortify; first in-camera, and then with the magical fully cooked images like this that you fire up! It's not something that needs complicating beyond the absolute joy (and wanting to celebrate!) seeing the blood, sweat and tears pay off! 💁♀️
Orson Carter said
Keira Lavelle said
That's all well and good, although it has been mentioned earlier in this thread (and indeed it's the case for a lot of photographer friends of mine who actively choose to pay) that one of the main incentives to choose paid shoots is simply relieving the pressure of delivering goods of a certain standard after the event. 🙂 One can enjoy their hobby free of expectations, but it doesn't mean a photographer doesn't still love the collaborative value and feels happy when all involved have achieved something very special and wish to celebrate it by reposting (off the back the photographer's contentment). 💖 Usually it's something they have edited for themselves anyway so it's not really any skin off their back.🤷♀️
For the theory you suggested to seriously work; you would have to have a far larger community of photographers who feel stronger about "keeping the bitches in check!" than just enjoying their hobby in a happy and relaxed fashion. And to be honest, if there's a stronger incentive to keeping pesky models in their place over the love for creating nice pictures, then it's probably better spending the money on therapy sessions rather than photography. 🙈 (I don't know... They allowed women to have credit cards and bank accounts and see what chaos it's led to?!?!?!) 😂
Yep. Pesky models. Butting in - and without having asked permission. Pah!These damn women - they spend time online when they probably haven't finished the housework. Pah!
Come now Orson, it's probably not intentional as *modelle's* only have really tiny brains... They probably just got distracted on their way to do the dishes, poor dears. 😌 But yesss women online with an opinion is a scarrrrry notion that certainly has the potential to get out of hand. 😬😂
waist.it said, 1729342576
Lenswonder said
I think it depends what you want tfp for. If you want tfp for artnudes though some photographers make such claims it's probably rare. If you want tfp for a fashion based project though some models do want to be paid for it, this is probably more achievable as tfp at the current time.
Edited by Lenswonder
Can't speak for anyone else, but I find there's still plenty of TF in the dress-up/pin-up genres, especially if one provides costumes & props. I've never actually asked anyone to pose nude. Whilst I have not conducted a detailed survey, I have lots of anecdotal evidence to suggest that the absence of such material from any of my online portfolios is indeed quite helpful in securing TF shoots. Additionally having my wife present at my shoots to assist with costumes, deal with 'feminine issues' and generally make sure the model is comfortable has proven a massive boon too.
Allesandro B said
JPea said
Holly Alexander
The impression I get from Holly Alexander is that if you wish to do TF totally or partially you must approach it in the same way that you would run business.
This is what I have always thought.
Not a lit of fun.
Edited by JPea
I don't think that's necessarily the case JPea. I mostly pay (and am happy to do so because I don't expect models to give up their time for nothing if it's their full time job and I have complete freedom to shoot what I want when I want) but have done some TF and every time I've done it they have pretty much been serendipitous moments where the model just loves modelling and creating images, it isn't their full time job, they have liked what I shoot and they have been happy to just let me give them finished images (even though I've offered to upload so they can select). It doesn't happen very often but when it does it's great.
Again, can't speak for anyone else. Almost all my models are enthusiastic amateurs who already have successful university-study/jobs/careers in other areas and have no intention of becoming professional internet models. Nevertheless, I like to conduct my TF in a properly-documented and businesslike manner and address potentially contentious issues before any shoot takes place. This includes written details regarding the studio environment, costumes and changing facilities, a written chaperone policy, and a written procedure for organising TF shoots. Any prospective model may read and/or download these from my site if he/she wishes to do so.
I realise of course this is not everyone's cup of tea, but it certainly works for me. :-)
TJK said, 1729357152
When I did a lot of TF work it was usually for agency models who wanted beach shots for their portfolios. They wanted to land high paying commercial work and we tended to put all the money into the production of the shoot. This was 10-15 years ago. Now most of the models on here are not agency models and have no career beyond working with photographers doing personal work. It doesn't make sense in that context to do TF work as photographers are their end client.
CalmNudes said, 1729358943
Keira Lavelle said
photofervor said
However, a model needs to or, should, keep their port fresh ...
If a model isn’t doing TF yet is able to keep their port fresh with new images from recent shoots where are the those images coming from?
If photographers didn’t give models images from paid shoots the model would have to do TF ....
one of the main incentives to choose paid shoots is simply relieving the pressure of delivering goods of a certain standard after the event
Yes if every single photographer who ever produced a a picture worth going in a models port agreed that they would never, ever, give away work they had shot, then models could be forced to trade an hour of their time shoot stuff the photographer wants (which he will edit in his own time) for an 5 or 6 hours of the photographers time - one shooting and 4-5 editing to produce something the model wants but the photographer doesn't
As Keira says, if the norm was that I gave her pictures from our shoot, I would buy myself out of that - I have more spare cash than spare time, I need to find 50 or 60 hours to clear my personal editing backlog, and I can't spare the editing time to work on pictures I don't want for myself. I know there are people with time on their hands and little spare cash, and that 1 hour of a models time to 4 of editing and 1 of shooting swaps something no one else would pay for (photographer's time) for something people will (model's time). But that trade does assume models enjoy doing the work and/or want the resulting pictures - and that's not always guaranteed.
Now... if when I have finished editing Keira says "ooh I like that, do you think I could post it" then (as Huw said above) it will get 5-10 times the views and a slightly proportion of loves than if I post it; it does my ego a power of good for the work I was going to do anyway to end up on a model's page somewhere.
As a photographer who produces stuff that is good enough for models to use now and then, it seems to be in my best interest to give pictures away. If a model had to do one shoot with no cash payment for every 20 that pay, she needs to charge the 20 payers more. If the 20 (or enough of them) let her use the work that they've decided they want to been seen in public anyway, it means they're not covering the cost of the free shoot.
Lenswonder said, 1729362735
waist.it you do repeat often as do I think one other photographer does that you've never asked anyone to pose nude.
Is asking someone to pose nude something dirty ?
Also the 'feminine issues' you refer to , it's very rare on a shoot that I've come across a female model having any 'feminine issues' so I can't think what you are referring to.
waist.it said, 1729367828
Lenswonder said
waist.it you do repeat often as do I think one other photographer does that you've never asked anyone to pose nude.
Is asking someone to pose nude something dirty ?
[snip]
Dirty no. Inappropriate yes. It can be inappropriate, depending on the circumstances. For example PP takes a dim view of photographers who ask models to shoot nude, who do not wish to do so. Indeed, when one messages such models, one is met with this clear message...
"Please note that this model does not shoot nude or adult style photos. It is against site policy to ask them to shoot nude or adult photos, and you risk being removed from the site if you do."
Majority of models with whom I work do not wish to shoot nude or adult style images. Therefore it would be inappropriate to ask them to do so.
In any event, I mentioned the nude issue in the context of this discussion because many of those with whom I have worked have indicated that the absence of such material from my online portfolios was instrumental in their decision to work TF with me.
No offence intended to those who do work/shoot/publish nude. What other people shoot is not my concern.
Edited by waist.it
Theta Aeterna said, 1729364762
Keira Lavelle said
JPea said
I am having difficulty in imagining how anyone would keep you in check Keira!
And my bleeding and bruised body is testament to the way you get me to volunteer images after our shoots.
Seriously, everything you say is spot on.
(This last post was a bit short???!!!?)
Don't worry John! I'll make sure I pack this in preparation for Portugal. 😉100% though, thinking about that day I had you scaling the cliff face on that treacherous track down to the beach treasures below... 😅 Followed by the excitement of seeing our efforts fortify; first in-camera, and then with the magical fully cooked images like this that you fire up! It's not something that needs complicating beyond the absolute joy (and wanting to celebrate!) seeing the blood, sweat and tears pay off! 💁♀️
Orson Carter said
Keira Lavelle said
That's all well and good, although it has been mentioned earlier in this thread (and indeed it's the case for a lot of photographer friends of mine who actively choose to pay) that one of the main incentives to choose paid shoots is simply relieving the pressure of delivering goods of a certain standard after the event. 🙂 One can enjoy their hobby free of expectations, but it doesn't mean a photographer doesn't still love the collaborative value and feels happy when all involved have achieved something very special and wish to celebrate it by reposting (off the back the photographer's contentment). 💖 Usually it's something they have edited for themselves anyway so it's not really any skin off their back.🤷♀️
For the theory you suggested to seriously work; you would have to have a far larger community of photographers who feel stronger about "keeping the bitches in check!" than just enjoying their hobby in a happy and relaxed fashion. And to be honest, if there's a stronger incentive to keeping pesky models in their place over the love for creating nice pictures, then it's probably better spending the money on therapy sessions rather than photography. 🙈 (I don't know... They allowed women to have credit cards and bank accounts and see what chaos it's led to?!?!?!) 😂
Yep. Pesky models. Butting in - and without having asked permission. Pah!These damn women - they spend time online when they probably haven't finished the housework. Pah!
Come now Orson, it's probably not intentional as *modelle's* only have really tiny brains... They probably just got distracted on their way to do the dishes, poor dears. 😌 But yesss women online with an opinion is a scarrrrry notion that certainly has the potential to get out of hand. 😬😂
Soo good!!!
JDS said, 1729364941
photographers are willing to pay
if they did not, the market would crumble.
however, it is doing quite well.