Level playing field.

Orson Carter said

Jessica Knight said

Not seen many models answering the question yet. I was thinking of starting a similar thread, yesterday I looked on castings to see if there was much around locally. Of the first 30 castings. only one was offering pay. It seems to me that paid castings seem to have disappeared pretty much. I understand why and that is because nobody has any money, but that also includes the models.

I do love to make good art it gives me a lot of joy and I love to use my skills with sets Direction and Drama. However as a Freelancer time is money. Rent does not get paid with making good art unless you are very lucky. With me you are paying for more than just a mannequin you are also paying for a lot of drama experience and skills. I can get work on the stage or film somewhere plus doing examining of drama exams.

I will do tf but it has to be very worth doing artistically. Or it could be in exchange for some head shots or shots of one of my new costumes. Or a video snip of one of my plays for a show reel. I am always put off when I read a fun shoot? Yes shooting can be and should be fun but what exactly is a fun shoot? To me that usually reads as you get naked so I can enjoy it.

I am sure that if you look around you will find some Young Thing who doesn't know better who will happily take her top off for nothing but it depends what you are looking for.

Two rooms full of costumes to maintain makeup and skills don't come cheap.

You have a very low opinion of photographers, don't you? 

Thats a little unfair. Some yes a very low opinion, others no i think they are brillaint at what they do and I would love to work for them. Bit like models i suppose, some are good some bad. I have a very low opinion of some GWCs, if you get asked as often as i do to do topless (usually tfp for 'fun') you would perhaps understand where that low opinion comes from.

ToggyMcTogface said

nikontogf said

It is indeed my hobby and you are correct that nobody is forcing me to buy high end gear but from my perspective, I buy the best I can to help me create the best images I can. Might just be me but to do less than that would perhaps suggest that I do no think highLy enough of the models I work with to invest in decent equipment. I use a Canon R6. I could buy a Canon R5 had I the money and it would doubtless be capable of producing more detailed and arguably better images but I cannot justify that kind of money for a hobby so I just get the best I can within the budget I allow myself. 

So you allow yourself an R6 and of course a few bits of glass but no budget for the model i.e. the subject of the images you bought it for.

Given the comments you've received in this thread you probably already know by now you'll only be spending your time polishing it rather than using it for the intended purpose for all the reasons stated. 

Perhaps if you just upped your kit a bit more then models would be knocking your door down for TF? Or perhaps it is time for a reality check based on what models are telling you and to re-evaluate. 

Or perhaps if you read the original post properly and the subsequent comments from myself, you’d not make ridiculous comments like this. Then again. Trolls are everywhere aren’t they lol

Quite a low opinion of "Young Things who will happily take their tops off for nothing" as well.

Not sure why it's worse than doing it for pay?

Edited by Huw

It's not a level playing field because it's business.

I work as a model and have done since 2008, I've never taken a break from it, and I work alongside a full time job too.

Although I have a massive portfolio and regular shoots, I do still shoot TF, however, TF is VERY personal as it depends on the photographer, if I personally like their style, the concept of the shoot, I rarely have the time to fit in my paid work let alone TF - there are sooooo many variables which is why models can't just shoot TF randomly and with anyone.

For the record, I also work as a freelance photographer and sometimes models pay me for portfolio updates. This because I work hard and have made a business out of photography too. I mostly work from business' creating marketing material, and business and actor headshots as well as model portfolios.

There is just no 'level playing field' because we all do different things, some people are just in the world on a hobby basis, others as a job.

You just have to focus on what you want to do and what works for you. Try street photography for a fun way to shoot for free.

Here’s a thought for photographers wondering why there’s no TF available, and no more than that, just applying some reverse logic.

Models may have accumulated many many images of themselves and say they don’t need any more so there’s no need to do TF.

However, a model needs to or, should, keep their port fresh and up-to-date so that photographers can confidently book them and know what they’re going to look like and what their skills are.

If a model isn’t doing TF yet is able to keep their port fresh with new images from recent shoots where are the those images coming from?

Yes, photographers doing paid shoots are generously giving images to models so, there’s no need for the model to do TF. 

If photographers didn’t give models images from paid shoots the model would have to do TF or, get their friend to take images so their port remains current.

As I say just a thought :-)

Edited by photofervor

priceb61 said

One of my models has to help out a family member who has just lost her job. Another model struggles with ill-health and cannot do any other form of work. They do need the money so, of course, I pay them.

Once again my post and comments have either not been read or have been misunderstood. I never said models should not be paid. Neither did I miss the fact that some charge out of necessity. Hoesntoy dowish people would read properly before commenting. . 

This post has been filtered based on your content filter settings because it is NSFW. View reply

photofervor said

Here’s a thought for photographers wondering why there’s no TF available, and no more than that, just applying some reverse logic.

Models may have accumulated many many images of themselves and say they don’t need any more so there’s no need to do TF.

However, a model needs to or, should, keep their port fresh and up-to-date so that photographers can confidently book them and know what they’re going to look like and what their skills are.

If a model isn’t doing TF yet is able to keep their port fresh with new images from recent shoots where are the those images coming from?

Yes, photographers doing paid shoots are generously giving images to models so, there’s no need for the model to do TF. 

If photographers didn’t give models images from paid shoots the model would have to do TF or, get their friend to take images so their port remains current.

As I say just a thought :-)

Edited by photofervor

That's all well and good, although it has been mentioned earlier in this thread (and indeed it's the case for a lot of photographer friends of mine who actively choose to pay) that one of the main incentives to choose paid shoots is simply relieving the pressure of delivering goods of a certain standard after the event. 🙂 One can enjoy their hobby free of expectations, but it doesn't mean a photographer doesn't still love the collaborative value and feels happy when all involved have achieved something very special and wish to celebrate it by reposting (off the back the photographer's contentment). 💖 Usually it's something they have edited for themselves anyway so it's not really any skin off their back.🤷‍♀️

For the theory you suggested to seriously work; you would have to have a far larger community of photographers who feel stronger about "keeping the bitches in check!" than just enjoying their hobby in a happy and relaxed fashion. And to be honest, if there's a stronger incentive to keeping pesky models in their place over the love for creating nice pictures, then it's probably better spending the money on therapy sessions rather than photography. 🙈 (I don't know... They allowed women to have credit cards and bank accounts and see what chaos it's led to?!?!?!) 😂

I have always paid models and would never shoot tfp as I am not good enough and it would not be a fair trade,  my photography is a hobby and one at present I do not get many chances to get to do

that often, I would think differently if I were a full time photographer with a great reputation and loads of big clients, then yes if I was tfp would be a fair exchange, There are many models out there with fantastic portfolios so why on earth would I expect them to work with me for nothing. As for new models it would pay them to get a portfolio started with the best photographer they can find even if this means paying them. I have always used old cameras and lighting equipment and the money saved goes towards paying models , the equipment does not hold me back, but it is the models that help me

to improve there talent and I must add patience has made my hobby a joyful experience and I have always thought it money well spent. Having been involved with a few different industries I can not remember any were anyone was frowned upon for asking to be paid it has been said before that there are not so many models as there used to be and there are many more ways for models to earn money but also the cost of travel and the stress of it makes being a model a tough job even when being paid, and even if you are behind a camera and lens that you have had to take out a morgage on

and lighting the same , it is what is in front of the lens that makes the image special.

nikontogf said

ToggyMcTogface said

nikontogf said

It is indeed my hobby and you are correct that nobody is forcing me to buy high end gear but from my perspective, I buy the best I can to help me create the best images I can. Might just be me but to do less than that would perhaps suggest that I do no think highLy enough of the models I work with to invest in decent equipment. I use a Canon R6. I could buy a Canon R5 had I the money and it would doubtless be capable of producing more detailed and arguably better images but I cannot justify that kind of money for a hobby so I just get the best I can within the budget I allow myself. 

So you allow yourself an R6 and of course a few bits of glass but no budget for the model i.e. the subject of the images you bought it for.

Given the comments you've received in this thread you probably already know by now you'll only be spending your time polishing it rather than using it for the intended purpose for all the reasons stated. 

Perhaps if you just upped your kit a bit more then models would be knocking your door down for TF? Or perhaps it is time for a reality check based on what models are telling you and to re-evaluate. 

Or perhaps if you read the original post properly and the subsequent comments from myself, you’d not make ridiculous comments like this. Then again. Trolls are everywhere aren’t they lol

As I said you need a rethink. Sort your attitude out and stop attacking anyone who disagrees with you. Times have moved on from 20 years ago and models no longer need to do TF to create/maintain a portfolio.

Levelling the playing field does not mean models should work you TF just because you think they should because you've bought a fancy camera, it means you now need to pay models if you want their time and skills because you need them more they need you. The field has become more level, just not at the level you feel entitled too. 

Keira Lavelle said

(I don't know... They allowed women to have credit cards and bank accounts and see what chaos it's led to?!?!?!) 😂

Espresso martinis?

Edited by Unfocussed Mike

Keira Lavelle

I am having difficulty in imagining how anyone would keep you in check Keira!

And my bleeding and bruised body is testament to the way you get me to volunteer images after our shoots.

Seriously, everything you say is spot on.

(This last post was a bit short???!!!?)

I believe it's perfectly reasonable to compensate models for their work, especially those who are experienced and have established reputations and portfolios. Ultimately, whether to provide the pictures to the model is a personal choice.
However, I've noticed a trend over the past two years: some models are now approaching photographers with messages like, "I admire your work and would love to collaborate. My rate is X per hour. When can you book me?"
Traditionally, if a model reached out to a photographer whose work they admired, it was understood that the collaboration would be at least on a TFP basis, at least initially. This was the norm for the first five years I've been on here. Now, it seems w've reached a point where some models expect payment even when they initiate the collaboration.
While this isn't a major issue in itself, I believe it reflects how far the market has shifted. It also explains why TFP work has become increasingly rare.

Portrait photography is about people.

The important bits are either end of the camera.

We should value them far, far above the machinery in between - after all a decent portrait camera literally can be had for less than a cut and colour.

If you really want TF, think about what else you are addding - concepts, location, styling, lighting, experience & good company.

Those are the fun bits anyway.

If this helps the OP or anyone else, when I am looking for models for TF shoots for my personal photography projects, I tend to have a very clear idea of the shoot. I create a mood board, organise the location, sometimes provide outfits or accessories and then models can get in touch if they are interested.

I think generic "do you want to shoot" doesn't really work, for the reasons I've said above that TF work is very personal so needs to be a shoot all parties want to do.