Level playing field.

priceb61 said

One of my models has to help out a family member who has just lost her job. Another model struggles with ill-health and cannot do any other form of work. They do need the money so, of course, I pay them.

You pay them because you get value from taking pictures of them—it has nothing to do with their or your private lives. Otherwise, why not just skip the photos and give them the money as a gift? Of course not—it's a service collaboration. Their time and modeling in exchange for your payment—it’s not some saintly donation.

ANDY00 said

priceb61 said

One of my models has to help out a family member who has just lost her job. Another model struggles with ill-health and cannot do any other form of work. They do need the money so, of course, I pay them.

You pay them because you get value from taking pictures of them—it has nothing to do with their or your private lives. Otherwise, why not just skip the photos and give them the money as a gift? Of course not—it's a service collaboration. Their time and modeling in exchange for your payment—it’s not some saintly donation.

Actually, I draw and paint them and I agree it's a service collaboration. However, their personal circumstances are relevant, as indeed are all models' personal circumstances, and mean that they must be paid, not asked to work for free,

ANDY00 said

priceb61 said

One of my models has to help out a family member who has just lost her job. Another model struggles with ill-health and cannot do any other form of work. They do need the money so, of course, I pay them.

You pay them because you get value from taking pictures of them—it has nothing to do with their or your private lives. Otherwise, why not just skip the photos and give them the money as a gift? Of course not—it's a service collaboration. Their time and modeling in exchange for your payment—it’s not some saintly donation.

I think the point priceb61 is making is about paid vs TF, which was the original subject of this thread?

It’s all about value and exchange of goods.

If the model delivers something of value to you and needs money to be able to do that, she needs to be payed. No discussion!

If you can bring more value to the model with your work than just an hourly wage, she will do TF or even pay you. Simple!

I am at a point now where I deal with all 3 scenarios thanks to the models I payed, gotten inspired by them and produced images which Inspired other models to contact me and shoot with me for pay, TF or even paying me. This is the value the payed models brought me. Inspiration, experience, joy during the shoot and post-processing and the drive to shoot more and explore more.

Gear is relevant, to a point, if you don’t do high-end, fine-art prints.

With the 1080 pixel limitation on PP or most of the Jpegs online, I am sure that most of us could not differentiate between an R5 and an R6 image. I also think most of the models don’t even look at the image quality from a resolution point of view. They want to connect with the image they are looking at and want to be inspired to create a similar feeling with the photographer.

priceb61 said

ANDY00 said

priceb61 said

One of my models has to help out a family member who has just lost her job. Another model struggles with ill-health and cannot do any other form of work. They do need the money so, of course, I pay them.

You pay them because you get value from taking pictures of them—it has nothing to do with their or your private lives. Otherwise, why not just skip the photos and give them the money as a gift? Of course not—it's a service collaboration. Their time and modeling in exchange for your payment—it’s not some saintly donation.

Actually, I draw and paint them and I agree it's a service collaboration. However, their personal circumstances are relevant, as indeed are all models' personal circumstances, and mean that they must be paid, not asked to work for free,

I disagree. You must respect that everyone has circumstances, regardless of their position—photographer, MUA, model, etc. Everyone has pressures and private lives. Whether you agree to pay them or collaborate through TF has nothing to do with those private circumstances. If a model posts a casting for TF or paid work, there’s no need to know why they chose that payment type. You either accept it or move on to someone else, youre not Doing anything saintly by paying a model for a project, you are fullfilling a contract of work, its not personal. keep it professional

Edited by ANDY00

Gothic Image said

ANDY00 said

priceb61 said

One of my models has to help out a family member who has just lost her job. Another model struggles with ill-health and cannot do any other form of work. They do need the money so, of course, I pay them.

You pay them because you get value from taking pictures of them—it has nothing to do with their or your private lives. Otherwise, why not just skip the photos and give them the money as a gift? Of course not—it's a service collaboration. Their time and modeling in exchange for your payment—it’s not some saintly donation.

I think the point priceb61 is making is about paid vs TF, which was the original subject of this thread?

Paid or TF are simply contract types. When I go to buy a bag of sugar, I don’t need to explain why I’m buying it. In the same way, why a creative chooses to ask for pay or TF is nobody’s business. You either accept the casting or look for another. TF or paid—there’s no difference. It’s just a contract and currency between two professionals to complete work—nothing more. 

ANDY00 said

priceb61 said

ANDY00 said

priceb61 said

One of my models has to help out a family member who has just lost her job. Another model struggles with ill-health and cannot do any other form of work. They do need the money so, of course, I pay them.

You pay them because you get value from taking pictures of them—it has nothing to do with their or your private lives. Otherwise, why not just skip the photos and give them the money as a gift? Of course not—it's a service collaboration. Their time and modeling in exchange for your payment—it’s not some saintly donation.

Actually, I draw and paint them and I agree it's a service collaboration. However, their personal circumstances are relevant, as indeed are all models' personal circumstances, and mean that they must be paid, not asked to work for free,

I disagree. You must respect that everyone has circumstances, regardless of their position—photographer, MUA, model, etc. Everyone has pressures and private lives. Whether you agree to pay them or collaborate through TF has nothing to do with those private circumstances. If a model posts a casting for TF or paid work, there’s no need to know why they chose that payment type. You either accept it or move on to someone else

We seem to be on different sides of this argument, though hopefully with mutual respect. A model's private circumstances are relevant to me, especially when it's someone I've worked with for 10 years. I'm interested that one model has had her first children's book published, I watched another model in her first rugby match (having a nice chat with her boyfriend, btw). By the same token, I decided not to book one model because her travel costs kept going up, making her unaffordable; I felt my money was better spent on someone else.

priceb61 said

ANDY00 said

priceb61 said

ANDY00 said

priceb61 said

One of my models has to help out a family member who has just lost her job. Another model struggles with ill-health and cannot do any other form of work. They do need the money so, of course, I pay them.

You pay them because you get value from taking pictures of them—it has nothing to do with their or your private lives. Otherwise, why not just skip the photos and give them the money as a gift? Of course not—it's a service collaboration. Their time and modeling in exchange for your payment—it’s not some saintly donation.

Actually, I draw and paint them and I agree it's a service collaboration. However, their personal circumstances are relevant, as indeed are all models' personal circumstances, and mean that they must be paid, not asked to work for free,

I disagree. You must respect that everyone has circumstances, regardless of their position—photographer, MUA, model, etc. Everyone has pressures and private lives. Whether you agree to pay them or collaborate through TF has nothing to do with those private circumstances. If a model posts a casting for TF or paid work, there’s no need to know why they chose that payment type. You either accept it or move on to someone else

We seem to be on different sides of this argument, though hopefully with mutual respect. A model's private circumstances are relevant to me, especially when it's someone I've worked with for 10 years. I'm interested that one model has had her first children's book published, I watched another model in her first rugby match (having a nice chat with her boyfriend, btw). By the same token, I decided not to book one model because her travel costs kept going up, making her unaffordable; I felt my money was better spent on someone else.

If you work with a model and become friends, I’m happy for you, but it doesn’t change how this works. If it’s a model who works for money, you decide whether that model is worth the payment—you either accept it or you don’t. There’s no need for all the extra 'they need the money this week' nonsense. You pay or you don’t, simple as that. Posting on a forum that you pay them because they have personal problems is like people who give to the homeless just so they can film it for their YouTube channel—you’re promoting yourself. How would those models feel if they saw you mentioning their personal problems on a public forum? even if youre not naming them everyone knows its someone in your port...... people select tf or paid for many many reasons but those reasons are private and nothing to do with anyone else. ive made my point - no need to respond

Edited by ANDY00

JME Studios said

However, model rates are also increasing with a model this week asking me if I'd be willing to shoot fashion at a rate of £60ph. They approached me, so it wasn't even an "F off" rate. If people are willing to pay that, great - but I can't justify that sort of expenditure even at higher levels; I too will have to take a step back soon I fear.

In summary, at the moment supply and demand is still doing its thing. Models can name their price and they're still more-or-less getting work. 

There has been a definite uplift in rates and some models can command it but a lot can't. I've scrapped two shoots in the past two weeks because I was being quoted too much, for me. 

I'm not sure they can charge what they like and still get the work I think they probably have other income opportunities they didn't have before. Which leads to it's not worth me getting out of bed for less than x. 

I also think some models look at a portfolio and think you shot with x therefore you must be prepared to spend this much per hour without knowing the back story of how a shoot came about and what the financial arrangement was.

Not seen many models answering the question yet. I was thinking of starting a similar thread, yesterday I looked on castings to see if there was much around locally. Of the first 30 castings. only one was offering pay. It seems to me that paid castings seem to have disappeared pretty much. I understand why and that is because nobody has any money, but that also includes the models.

I do love to make good art it gives me a lot of joy and I love to use my skills with sets Direction and Drama. However as a Freelancer time is money. Rent does not get paid with making good art unless you are very lucky. With me you are paying for more than just a mannequin you are also paying for a lot of drama experience and skills. I can get work on the stage or film somewhere plus doing examining of drama exams.

I will do tf but it has to be very worth doing artistically. Or it could be in exchange for some head shots or shots of one of my new costumes. Or a video snip of one of my plays for a show reel. I am always put off when I read a fun shoot? Yes shooting can be and should be fun but what exactly is a fun shoot? To me that usually reads as you get naked so I can enjoy it.

I am sure that if you look around you will find some Young Thing who doesn't know better who will happily take her top off for nothing but it depends what you are looking for.

Two rooms full of costumes to maintain makeup and skills don't come cheap.

Unfortunately it’s an expensive hobby!

I think photography though does lure people in as an imagined scenario of being a quasi pro money making hobby thing, when in reality it’s just a big money sucking hoover of a hobby.

I’ve a photography book where the first few chapters are devoted of smashing the readers aspirations of being rich and famous into the mud.

"For myself, I am beginning to wonder if I should switch to a different area of photography as I can no longer afford the cost incurred in this area f photography. A real blow for me as I very much enjoy what I do."

My exact position. I cannot blame models for wanting to make a living that would be crazy. It simply makes me feel sad. Ive had many years having great fun shooting and meeting awsome people. And to feel that slipping away is a great sadness.

Bigfish3311

I'm in the fortunate position that I can afford to pay models but if I couldn't and I had to try to shoot TF to get any models to shoot with, then I would pack it in ...quickly.

I have had 12 or is it 13 years of shooting with models

It has always been a relaxed fun pleasure without any expectations of what the results should be nor a requirement to please anybody but me.

I shoot with models that I think will be able to help me get the results I think I want.

The prices models charge have risen

The cost of everything has risen.

If you can't afford something there are several options. You just have to work out the best one for you.

Jessica Knight said

Not seen many models answering the question yet. I was thinking of starting a similar thread, yesterday I looked on castings to see if there was much around locally. Of the first 30 castings. only one was offering pay. It seems to me that paid castings seem to have disappeared pretty much. I understand why and that is because nobody has any money, but that also includes the models.

I do love to make good art it gives me a lot of joy and I love to use my skills with sets Direction and Drama. However as a Freelancer time is money. Rent does not get paid with making good art unless you are very lucky. With me you are paying for more than just a mannequin you are also paying for a lot of drama experience and skills. I can get work on the stage or film somewhere plus doing examining of drama exams.

I will do tf but it has to be very worth doing artistically. Or it could be in exchange for some head shots or shots of one of my new costumes. Or a video snip of one of my plays for a show reel. I am always put off when I read a fun shoot? Yes shooting can be and should be fun but what exactly is a fun shoot? To me that usually reads as you get naked so I can enjoy it.

I am sure that if you look around you will find some Young Thing who doesn't know better who will happily take her top off for nothing but it depends what you are looking for.

Two rooms full of costumes to maintain makeup and skills don't come cheap.

You have a very low opinion of photographers, don't you?