Level playing field.

Huw nah you definitely arnt dated.

Your nudes are unreal and you know it ☺️

But you are a rare breed I fear. Many from the earlier years haven't moved with the times.

But I always get the impression you are a 25 year old on the inside anyway 😉 so perhaps its easier for you to keep up with the times 🙂

JME Studios said

I think there's two things at play here.

One is the changed landscape, which has already been summed up. Models turned to OnlyFans, etc. at the start of the Pandemic and are now far more happy and far more confident in self-shooting.

The other is the squeeze we're all suffering financially, which is going to happen even further once the Halloween Budget (aka "The Autumn Statement") comes out. I would consider myself at the lower echelons of middle-class. Five years ago, I chose to shop at Aldi over Sainsbury's because I appreciated a bargain and could put that money towards a nice little luxury from time-to-time. However, now, things have gone up so much, yet my wages have not, that I now have to shop at Aldi. A pint in my village pub is now pushing dangerously close to the £6 barrier; that's not sustainable (either for me, or indeed the pub frankly speaking) so that's something else I've had to cut back on and when I go out I drink the house rum with a mixer rather than a beer, as it's nearly £1 cheaper.

The reality is even the middle classes are having to make sacrifices; if not now they certainly will after October 30.

However, model rates are also increasing with a model this week asking me if I'd be willing to shoot fashion at a rate of £60ph. They approached me, so it wasn't even an "F off" rate. If people are willing to pay that, great - but I can't justify that sort of expenditure even at higher levels; I too will have to take a step back soon I fear.

In summary, at the moment supply and demand is still doing its thing. Models can name their price and they're still more-or-less getting work. However, my gut feeling is that the current equilibirum is going to falter in the next year as things lke the removal of Winter Fuel Allowance and tax hikes (even Reeves can't pretend they're not coming by this point) bite, and the pool of photographers with the budget to shoot will diminish significantly.

Models may well once again turn to OF; but will the custom be there? In the Pandemic, there was a market of pent-up fustrated people getting paid 80% of their wage to sit on their arse and absolutely no realistic way of spending whatever money was left after outgoings were met; so the disposable income was there as you couldn't exactly spend it down the boozer could you? 

This time, even the middle classes are going to be skint.

However, I do agree if models are now working strictly for pay only, they should modify their profiles accordingly.

Words of wisdom right here! This is a far more realistic take on things than I have seen in many of the comment thus far. 

Gothic Image said

nikontogf said

Gothic Image said

For a lot of models on here, it's their full time job.  How many photographers on here have photography as their full time job?  That will explain why the money flow is the way it is, it's nothing to do with a level playing field.

Or perhaps may models are doing this as their full time job as they are getting paid. Photographers aren’t because they are not getting paid which is exactly the point I was trying to make. 

That's certainly one way of looking at it, they would soon stop if it didn't pay enough.  I'd suggest that on the other hand hobby photographers don't need to be paid in order to carry on?  See the comment from Everly Rose above.

Edited by Gothic Image

Not needing to be paid as photographers? That’s a large suggestion. Each photographer is an individual with individual expenses  and needs. A single man/woman with a well paid job could likely work for free without issue. A family man/woman with an averidge job and a spouse and children to support. Not so easy. 

photofervor said

 

Things have changed (old timer perspective.)

When I started model photography and using PP more than 10 years ago there were many models on PP who were shooting as a hobby alongside their work. It was a pleasurable exercise to spend time with them, often on a regular basis, in the studio or, out in the landscape, creating together.

Now, it’s almost without exception "I don't do TF this is my job" commercial, even those models starting out, many of whom who have a main job, have an expectation of being paid and often at significant rates. This is the internet/social media/instagram/only-fans culture and they’re just going along with it seeing an opportunity.

Edited by photofervor

This is very true and something I’ve noticed. I have seen new ports with new inexperienced models where the only available photographers are poorly executed phone cam pics. Usually self shot and these models often demand payment right off the bat and want experienced photographers to take those pictures for them. How is anyone’s mind that can be right beggars belief. 

Thelema said

Supply and demand!

It’s your hobby no one is forcing you spend tons of money on camera gear!

Most models do this as an income

Thelema said

Supply and demand!

It’s your hobby no one is forcing you spend tons of money on camera gear!

Most models do this as an income

It is indeed my hobby and you are correct that nobody is forcing me to buy high end gear but from my perspective, I buy the best I can to help me create the best images I can. Might just be me but to do less than that would perhaps suggest that I do no think highLy enough of the models I work with to invest in decent equipment. I use a Canon R6. I could buy a Canon R5 had I the money and it would doubtless be capable of producing more detailed and arguably better images but I cannot justify that kind of money for a hobby so I just get the best I can within the budget I allow myself. 

Ted Smith Photography said

I have been under a bit of rock for the last 20 years or so. Before then, photographers were generally still considered a valued trade, as I was to some extent, and I was proud to call myself one.

I've taken time out from it and raised my kids, come back to it in the hope of making it a bit of a second income to help pay my own bills, and found the world upside down where photography seems to be largely worthless as a trade (a few wedding photographers aside). It's rather soul destroying actually.

I agree models should be paid for their time and skills, just as a gardener is, and as a tattooist is, and as a hair dresser or mechanic is. I guess what I find hard to fatham is how photography, as a trade, and photographers, as trades-people, have fallen so far from the value tree and have become essentially worthless, unless your name is so well established already as a go to choice.

Edited by Ted Smith Photography

Automation, Ai and so on are largely to blame here I think. Online courses that charge a few hundred pounds for a basic course and a certificate proclaiming the student to Bea professional photographer. As others have said, these have largely been the downfall of the photographer. Do ordinary people see the difference in an automated capture and Ai edited image and one taken by a knowledgeable and experienced photographer using decent gear and editing programmes as they should be used?  I believe many people nowadays would be hard pushed to tell the difference or even care to notice. In not talking about models here but just your average person in the street that may want some portraits of family photos done. 

Mel4nie said

Speaking as a part time model where this isn't my my source of income, for me shooting tfp is all about the quality of the photographer and the actual concept.

I started off as a lingerie model. My portfolio is stacked full of lingerie based images so why would I want to shoot yet more of this genre for trade when I already have more than enough of this genre in my portfolio. Hence if anyone approaches me for a lingerie styled shoot, its paid as there's no other motivation for me to shoot it. However if someone came to me with a brilliant concept which wasn't lingerie based or even an lingerie based concept which hadnt been shot before, I would most likely jump all over it for tfp. Half the issue I find is a lot of photographers don't have the creative mind or the communication skills to effectly present an idea to an experienced model to make them jump out and say yes, I want to shoot this on a tfp basis.

I am in complete agreement with what you say about lingerie images. I wouldn’t expect any model to work TFP in areas where they already have that genre covered. I’d be embarrassed to even ask tbh. That said, if I am offering something new or a concept that appeals to the model and he/she likes work I have already produced as TFP, I see no reason that shouldn’t be accepted or at least discussed. I also agree that some photographers are unable to prints words the idea in their heads. I am often guilty of this but in my defence. I do have Dyslexia which can be a royal pain when it comes t the written word and I very much doubt I am the only one. 

Lenswonder said

Spend your money on something else you prefer , shoot subjects which don't cost anything or much but your travel. Such as wildlife , landscape photography, you could also find the odd person who is not into this for money or professionally to collaborate with.

You can always find a different route to enjoy photography, with model photography it's either you find someone who wants to tfp with you because they like your photography or ideas which for some are few in number or you go the easy route and spend on a model.

The only way you can level the playing field is doing what you want in a way that makes you happy.

Edited by Lenswonder

Easier said than done. I’ve been shooting for some forty years. I’ve tried landscapes, wildlife, still life and many other genres but I’ve always come back to people. I am fascinated by the different looks, shapes, sizes skin colour and so on and on a deeper level, I am I treasured by the human psyche and how emotions and thought can be shown as an image.

btw. Should I go back to landscapes or wildlife  would have to change most of my lenses which are all geared toward people photography. As for wildlife photography. I could not possibly afford to travel to far flung places to capture ani,als in their natural state. Nor could if afford the huge telephoto lenses that would be required. 

nikontogf said

photofervor said

 

Things have changed (old timer perspective.)

When I started model photography and using PP more than 10 years ago there were many models on PP who were shooting as a hobby alongside their work. It was a pleasurable exercise to spend time with them, often on a regular basis, in the studio or, out in the landscape, creating together.

Now, it’s almost without exception "I don't do TF this is my job" commercial, even those models starting out, many of whom who have a main job, have an expectation of being paid and often at significant rates. This is the internet/social media/instagram/only-fans culture and they’re just going along with it seeing an opportunity.

Edited by photofervor

This is very true and something I’ve noticed. I have seen new ports with new inexperienced models where the only available photographers are poorly executed phone cam pics. Usually self shot and these models often demand payment right off the bat and want experienced photographers to take those pictures for them. How is anyone’s mind that can be right beggars belief. 

Beyond silliness like cat ears and cartoon filters, the technical quality of photos of new models is surely irrelevant to their earning potential? 

We used to want models to provide “polaroids”. I would suggest that a few rough self-shot photos often provides the same benefits.

nikontogf .

It is indeed my hobby and you are correct that nobody is forcing me to buy high end gear but from my perspective, I buy the best I can to help me create the best images I can. Might just be me but to do less than that would perhaps suggest that I do no think highLy enough of the models I work with to invest in decent equipment. I use a Canon R6. I could buy a Canon R5 had I the money and it would doubtless be capable of producing more detailed and arguably better images but I cannot justify that kind of money for a hobby so I just get the best I can within the budget I allow myself. 

The amount you spend on your kit is irrelevant; there are photographers here rightly held in high esteem by models who are shooting with quite entry level DSLRs from 15 years ago. I would happily shoot with my D700, which is a 16 year old, 12 megapixel model, and recently have been using an A7II, which is a decade-old design on which I use vintage lenses and some quite literally home made lenses.

If you are not shooting commercially there is next to zero correlation between the kit you use and the value of the work. (And even if you do, it’s a pretty limited correlation.) This whole line of thinking is distorting your perspective.

Edited by Unfocussed Mike

Unfocussed Mike said

nikontogf said

photofervor said

 

Things have changed (old timer perspective.)

When I started model photography and using PP more than 10 years ago there were many models on PP who were shooting as a hobby alongside their work. It was a pleasurable exercise to spend time with them, often on a regular basis, in the studio or, out in the landscape, creating together.

Now, it’s almost without exception "I don't do TF this is my job" commercial, even those models starting out, many of whom who have a main job, have an expectation of being paid and often at significant rates. This is the internet/social media/instagram/only-fans culture and they’re just going along with it seeing an opportunity.

Edited by photofervor

This is very true and something I’ve noticed. I have seen new ports with new inexperienced models where the only available photographers are poorly executed phone cam pics. Usually self shot and these models often demand payment right off the bat and want experienced photographers to take those pictures for them. How is anyone’s mind that can be right beggars belief. 

Beyond silliness like cat ears and cartoon filters, the technical quality of photos of new models is surely irrelevant to their earning potential? 

We used to want models to provide “polaroids”. I would suggest that a few rough self-shot photos often provides the same benefits.

nikontogf .

It is indeed my hobby and you are correct that nobody is forcing me to buy high end gear but from my perspective, I buy the best I can to help me create the best images I can. Might just be me but to do less than that would perhaps suggest that I do no think highLy enough of the models I work with to invest in decent equipment. I use a Canon R6. I could buy a Canon R5 had I the money and it would doubtless be capable of producing more detailed and arguably better images but I cannot justify that kind of money for a hobby so I just get the best I can within the budget I allow myself. 

The amount you spend on your kit is irrelevant; there are photographers here rightly held in high esteem by models who are shooting with quite entry level DSLRs from 15 years ago. I would happily shoot with my D700, which is a 16 year old, 12 megapixel model, and recently have been using an A7II, which is a decade-old design on which I use vintage lenses and some quite literally home made lenses.

If you are not shooting commercially there is next to zero correlation between the kit you use and the value of the work. (And even if you do, it’s a pretty limited correlation.) This whole line of thinking is distorting your perspective.

Edited by Unfocussed Mike

Yes there are reasons that ‘snapshots’ can be helpful as you often get to see the new model as they are with no photoshopping done and that always advantageous I think. My argument is that these newbies are demanding professional or at least high quality images whilst having little of offer in exchange with regards to experience as models. 

Huw said

Gothic Image said

nikontogf said

Gothic Image said

For a lot of models on here, it's their full time job.  How many photographers on here have photography as their full time job?  That will explain why the money flow is the way it is, it's nothing to do with a level playing field.

Or perhaps may models are doing this as their full time job as they are getting paid. Photographers aren’t because they are not getting paid which is exactly the point I was trying to make. 

That's certainly one way of looking at it, they would soon stop if it didn't pay enough.  I'd suggest that on the other hand hobby photographers don't need to be paid in order to carry on?  See the comment from Everly Rose above.

Edited by Gothic Image

Hmm....

You'd need to pay me to shoot "glamour" - or do an hour of "art nude" for each hour of "glamour".
So far, I've avoided having to take any photos of someone with a stilletto heel stuck in their knickers   ;)

That one made me laugh lol.  Now have a mental image in my head f a model with a high heel shoe in her knickers that she’s forgotten about when she sits down to take a break Ouch! 😂😂

nikontogf said

Yes there are reasons that ‘snapshots’ can be helpful as you often get to see the new model as they are with no photoshopping done and that always advantageous I think. My argument is that these newbies are demanding professional or at least high quality images whilst having little of offer in exchange with regards to experience as models. 

Fair enough. But asking isn’t getting, is it? People can ask for anything. And they do! :-) You’re not obligated to pay any price, just chuckle and move on! Let someone else take the starting risk. Or negotiate, or stick to doing castings?

Two or three of the models I would most like to shoot with, should I ever get my life organised again, started with some quite basic phone snaps, and just obvious potential in their look, and have gone on to be in really nice work.

Edited by Unfocussed Mike

nikontogf said

It is indeed my hobby and you are correct that nobody is forcing me to buy high end gear but from my perspective, I buy the best I can to help me create the best images I can. Might just be me but to do less than that would perhaps suggest that I do no think highLy enough of the models I work with to invest in decent equipment. I use a Canon R6. I could buy a Canon R5 had I the money and it would doubtless be capable of producing more detailed and arguably better images but I cannot justify that kind of money for a hobby so I just get the best I can within the budget I allow myself. 

So you allow yourself an R6 and of course a few bits of glass but no budget for the model i.e. the subject of the images you bought it for.

Given the comments you've received in this thread you probably already know by now you'll only be spending your time polishing it rather than using it for the intended purpose for all the reasons stated. 

Perhaps if you just upped your kit a bit more then models would be knocking your door down for TF? Or perhaps it is time for a reality check based on what models are telling you and to re-evaluate. 

nikontogf people doesn't have to mean models , also it sounds like you're making everything sound about spending money. That's your own decision.

One of my models has to help out a family member who has just lost her job. Another model struggles with ill-health and cannot do any other form of work. They do need the money so, of course, I pay them.