Level playing field.

Almost all of my models are found either in real life or on social media. I'm arelatively poorer photographer than many and after studio and equipment costs I can rarely afford to offer anything other than TF shoots but I am normally still pretty busy.

Edited by Pix Photography

Unfocussed Mike said

This thread was doing just fine without the politics. 

We can't avoid what's coming.

Things have slowed down on platforms like these significantly, even since society as we know it "restarted" around three years ago.  Economically, we're about to enter a very painful period where even the well-heeled will need to make sacrifices. Another late 2000's style situation can't be ruled out.

At the moment, demand outstrips supply. But for how long?

JME Studios said

Unfocussed Mike said

This thread was doing just fine without the politics. 

We can't avoid what's coming.

Things have slowed down on platforms like these significantly, even since society as we know it "restarted" around three years ago.  Economically, we're about to enter a very painful period where even the well-heeled will need to make sacrifices. Another late 2000's style situation can't be ruled out.

At the moment, demand outstrips supply. But for how long?

Again, it was fine without the politics. People can't respond to this without furthering the politics. Don't do this.

In very simple terms - it’s purely market forces. You can’t change the natural flow of market forces (which form over many years of an industry/product existing and adjust naturally with social and business shifts) just on the basis of it not suiting a handful of people. 🙂

A lot of things in recent years have also changed to mean that the industry has adapted/moved with the times. I guess the easiest thing to do if working habits really are a bugbear is find a new hobby. 🙂

The thing about TF is - it’s now become this loose and floppy remnant of a term that: certainly once upon a time had value with what it was originally supposed to be for. Now it often gets treat like an ego points system, or just an outright way to expect a free shoot without saying the less polite: “I don’t want to pay you to pose for me.” But to assume it was equal/everyone gained equal benefits from participating in a *traditional* TF arrangement is wrong. And that’s an essence of how historically - the power tended to lean in favour of the photographer (yes in the freelance community they’re most frequently older men, but not always). Traditional TF wasn’t balanced however, and I’m not talking about who spent what for the shoot (you can argue studio costs/camera costs/outfit costs/makeup costs until the cows come home… But none of it means anything really to the finer point). It wasn’t balanced because the photographer still walks away with full ownership and legal copyright of the pictures, the *mere model* on the other hand is only blessed with the gracious *permission* to use the photos. 😏 Unless otherwise agreed of course, but that was the classic concept. 💁🏻‍♀️ Nowadays, you have models doing self portraits/they train their partners up to take a half decent picture too and technology has made DIY so much easier. Some are more advanced and skilled at it than others, but for anything ultra basic - they just don’t need to give their time away for free. Photographers with a certain skill set, highly unique ideas or access to a super cool shooting opportunity stand a better chance of securing TF arrangements because of the speciality of what they bring to the model’s table… The market force shifts you see? But basically the easiest way to get your head around it is by simply putting yourself in the shoes of a model. They need a reason to want to participate in a shoot. If that reason is not going to be cash, then there needs to be something else significant on the table that they wouldn’t be able to get easily just by themselves/anywhere else. Some people shoot with models in exchange for content for their fan sites, others will offer BTS services for events… As times have changed it’s just about being more innovative about where you fit in the market forces with what you legitimately have to offer. 🤗

Many models on here are professional (it’s literally putting bread on the table and paying their electricity bill when they pose) so of course they are going to only ask for payment in cash, it doesn’t mean they don’t love modelling any less… It’s literally just what enables them to eat. 😄 Most photographers here on the other hand are indeed hobbyist - now it’s pretty well a standard and normal thing to assume that people spend money to do their hobbies? Golf players for example spend hundreds on clubs, then the fee of the course… They would be told to jog on though if they asked a golfing coach to give their time for free though because: “they already had a lot of expenses paid out for their hobby.” 🙈

The fact that there’s more female models posing for male photographers - again it’s a largely hobby orientated freelance industry. People shoot what they like? 🤷🏻‍♀️ There’s no 3rd party client - they are the client and they have every right to choose what they shoot; sometimes that’s based off a creative idea, but sometimes it’s just as simple as something they personally see as attractive . It’s nice to see skilled male models booked out and working (I’ve modelled with a few myself and guys do give their own interesting dynamic), but you can’t force people to photograph things they’re less interested in. Just live and let live and treat people with respect. 🥰

15-20 years ago a a novice but keen/sociable photographer could easily attract novice and semi-experienced models to work with them TF. The technical and aesthetic merits of his lighting, photography and retouching were readily overlooked by most models in those days. Most models were happy just to see their face in a photo.

These days, models know exactly what they want. Furthermore, they recognise the photographers who are able to provide it - esp in terms of style. If a photographer still shoots exactly what he did 15 years ago, he ain't going to cut it.

If TF is your goal (or more likely an exchange of content for TF these days) then you need to properly understand what models want and evidently be capable of delivering it. You will probably also need to provide good quality video.

It's a different world but full of old fossils I'm afraid.

Things have changed (old timer perspective.)

When I started model photography and using PP more than 10 years ago there were many models on PP who were shooting as a hobby alongside their work. It was a pleasurable exercise to spend time with them, often on a regular basis, in the studio or, out in the landscape, creating together.

Now, it’s almost without exception "I don't do TF this is my job" commercial, even those models starting out, many of whom who have a main job, have an expectation of being paid and often at significant rates. This is the internet/social media/instagram/only-fans culture and they’re just going along with it seeing an opportunity.

Edited by photofervor

photofervor said

Now, it’s almost without exception "I don't do TF this is my job" commercial, even those models starting out, many of whom who have a main job, have an expectation of being paid and often at significant rates.

Expectations aren't reality though are they? I think a lot of models ask high rates, I don't know if we can know how many get them. And we're free to interpret "this is my main job" however we like!

Edited by Unfocussed Mike

Keira's absolutely right about market forces.

This is a bit off-topic, but take the television industry, which has also been completely flipped on its head by The Internet.

In the 90's, to have extra choice you had to get Sky or Cable and either stick a dish on your wall and run cables from it to the back of the TV, or dig up your garden to run a wire from the street to the back of your TV.

Now, your own television has a world of extra choice that you watch when you want to watch it.  Much of it you've already paid for via the license fee, or you can watch for free with advertising; I'll come back to this point in a second. But extra choice is available on a no-hassle, no-contract basis now. If you want Netflix for a month to see one series, you can bin it after a month. You're not tied into an 18-month contract with a bunch of channels you will never watch.

Traditional TV networks are struggling; even ITV are now putting their flagship soaps online at 7am so, unfortunately, the outcome of any major cliffhangers is all over the Internet by the time it airs in the evening. But the trade-off is worth it as an ITV X viewer is now worth more than an ITV1 viewer to advertisers. The BBC have done it for some time with EastEnders, and are no longer bothered by the show airing against Emmerdale or Corrie as they would have been 30 years ago.

Any TV channel that runs entirely on pre-recorded output is on borrowed time.  Why has the BBC finally started showing reverence to the Eurovision Song Contest, with the qualifiers - which we don't have to compete in - getting bumped up from BBC Three/Four to BBC One since we hosted last year?  The reason is simple; they'll get more eyeballs with something live - even Eurovision - than they will showing a pre-recorded programme that isn't time-sensitive and you're not missing out if you watch it whenever you like on the BBC iPlayer.

But even Netflix, Prime, Disney+ must be in trouble because of the impending squeeze on household budgets.  It's no coinicidence that Channels 4 & 5 are both planning major overhauls of their free streaming services, and ITV has of course done similar in the last couple of years.  Because even stuff like Netflix is going to be considered dispensable soon.

Widly off-topic I know, but an example of how The Internet has changed market forces literally everywhere you look.

(Edits for SPAG.)

Edited by JME Studios

"Supply and demand" was said very early on. 

You want models to pose for you more than they want anything that you can barter.  

There are people willing to pose for the fun of it, but they only have so much time: there are far more photographers wanting to shoot without handing over cash than there are model-hours to service them. Those with lots of time to pose are being paid so they don't need another full time job. 

Supply and demand!

It’s your hobby no one is forcing you spend tons of money on camera gear!

Most models do this as an income

I am inclined to think that all models should be paid. I have only done 2 TFP shoots and even then I have made a financial contribution. 

Unless they are modelling purely for fun  and have another job they probably have to pay their bills just as we all do.

Therefore it comes as no surprize that they want paying. If models work for you TFP you should consider yourself lucky.

Most of the models that I have worked with do it for a living. A hobbyist photographer should weigh up what they want to spend on what and if paying a model goes against the grain then yes indeed, they should consider another genre.

Spend your money on something else you prefer , shoot subjects which don't cost anything or much but your travel. Such as wildlife , landscape photography, you could also find the odd person who is not into this for money or professionally to collaborate with.

You can always find a different route to enjoy photography, with model photography it's either you find someone who wants to tfp with you because they like your photography or ideas which for some are few in number or you go the easy route and spend on a model.

The only way you can level the playing field is doing what you want in a way that makes you happy.

Edited by Lenswonder

Speaking as a part time model where this isn't my my source of income, for me shooting tfp is all about the quality of the photographer and the actual concept.

I started off as a lingerie model. My portfolio is stacked full of lingerie based images so why would I want to shoot yet more of this genre for trade when I already have more than enough of this genre in my portfolio. Hence if anyone approaches me for a lingerie styled shoot, its paid as there's no other motivation for me to shoot it. However if someone came to me with a brilliant concept which wasn't lingerie based or even an lingerie based concept which hadnt been shot before, I would most likely jump all over it for tfp. Half the issue I find is a lot of photographers don't have the creative mind or the communication skills to effectly present an idea to an experienced model to make them jump out and say yes, I want to shoot this on a tfp basis.

I have been under a bit of rock for the last 20 years or so. Before then, photographers were generally still considered a valued trade, as I was to some extent, and I was proud to call myself one.

I've taken time out from it and raised my kids, come back to it in the hope of making it a bit of a second income to help pay my own bills, and found the world upside down where photography seems to be largely worthless as a trade (a few wedding photographers aside). It's rather soul destroying actually.

I agree models should be paid for their time and skills, just as a gardener is, and as a tattooist is, and as a hair dresser or mechanic is. I guess what I find hard to fatham is how photography, as a trade, and photographers, as trades-people, have fallen so far from the value tree and have become essentially worthless, unless your name is so well established already as a go to choice.

Edited by Ted Smith Photography

Ted Smith Photography said

I agree models should be paid for their time and skills, just as a gardener is, and as a tattooist is, and as a hair dresser or mechanic is. I guess what I find hard to fatham is how photography, as a trade, and photographers, as trades-people, have fallen so far from the value tree and have become essentially worthless, unless your name is so well established already as a go to choice.

As I said earlier, it's a result of the ubiquity of mobile phones and the accessibility of the picture-taking technology - in particular, doing so very cheaply for most people - which has resulted in the democratisation of photography.  Skilled photographers will still be in demand, and be able to charge for their particular skills and services, but the financial barrier to taking reasonable pictures just isn't there any more.