Level playing field.

Stu H said

I've just come back from Aldi, where my offer to pay for my weeks shopping with 10 digital, fully edited shots of the store was laughingly declined.

I should imagine that any offers similar made by a model would also be declined

Prints / digital images/ "exposure" don't pay the bills, and many people - and no doubt more than a few models on here - are living hand to mouth.

If you can't afford to pay a model, then save up enough until you can.

Pretty sure there are a few commercial photographers and studios who would tell you that’s incorrect. Digital images are literally putting food on their table. Everyone’s different, and not everyone fits into the same box. P.S. Aldi vouchers are prints ;-)

Edited by ANDY00

The wasps next has been well and truly stirred lol

Its been interesting to read the comments on here and I look forward to more. Apologies to those of you that have been down this road before.

To be clear. I do not consider myself a professional photographer by any stretch of the imagination and I’ll be the first to admit that my work is frequently overshadowed by far superior work from creatives on here. Happy to accept sympathy ‘loves’ btw lol.

I fully understand that most models use shoots as a way to make a living either part of full time and I would not expect those models to offer TFP just because I’m a hobbiest shooter. As previously stated, I also understand that models have costs too but do those costs amount to the same as a photographer who may spend many thousands of pounds on camera, lighting equipment, computers, editing software and so on. ? I’ll leave that as an open question.

I came from the days when a photography was a real skill. Cameras were all manual. Flash needed to be calculated with the aid of a light meter and processing was done in a darkroom. Yes I’m that old lol. As others have commented, our little works has changed drastically with the advent of automation and Ai to the point where actual photographers may at some point simply become redundant 

As also mentioned previously, I do not intend to make money from my hobby although I’ll admit it would be nice sometimes. For me, were I to be paid for my efforts it would become a job rather than a hobby and that would remove much of the pleasure I get from doing it.

i have paid models in the past and likely will do so again as some charge very reasonable rates and know their craft very well, but financial limitations that effect so many of us nowadays mean TFP is always going  to be preferable. I have never shot upper levels but should I do so in the future I would expect to pay as I think it takes courage to be in a state of undress so to speak in front of a man with a camera that the model has likely never met before.

Right or wrong I always provide edited images from every shoot is do whether I’ve paid the model or not. Not everyone will agree with this but I think if those paid models use some of my images on their port, then that can only be beneficial for me.

I do use social media to arrange shoots but prefer a platform like PP as I feel it’s safer for all and far easier to see examples of a models previous work, references and much more.

As for offering what a model may want. It wouldn’t be the first time I told a model I’d be happy to shoot whatever they wanted or was currently missing from their ports. Could of course be that my work is not of a standard that many models desire but that’s very much a matter of individual opinion I think.

Apart from working with models on here I also do street portraits and have no problems approaching a complete stranger for a quick photo session.  I very much enjoy the interaction just as much as the process of taking the pictures.

Of course, all this is just my personal opinion so feel free to disagree.😊

ANDY00 said

Stu H said

I've just come back from Aldi, where my offer to pay for my weeks shopping with 10 digital, fully edited shots of the store was laughingly declined.

I should imagine that any offers similar made by a model would also be declined

Prints / digital images/ "exposure" don't pay the bills, and many people - and no doubt more than a few models on here - are living hand to mouth.

If you can't afford to pay a model, then save up enough until you can.

Pretty sure there are a few commercial photographers and studios who would tell you that’s incorrect.

But only a few! 

A tiny fraction of the number there were ten years ago, which is driving the point, right?

I have a stack of photography kit.  I think the last thing I bought was a Sigma Art 135/1.8 moments before the first lockdown.  I have a ton of kit, much of which sits in a cupboard and hasn't been used for years (if anyone is a Nikon fan and is looking for a decent price on stuff I don't use, drop me a message)  A lot of money was spent on that stuff.  However I can't see how what I spent is relevant to whether someone wants / can afford to shoot with me.  Should a model feel I'm more worthy of shooting TF 'cos I chose to spend money on a Nikon 85/1.4 than buying a zoom which covers the same focal length?  In my view, no, not even slightly.

Similarly if a model chooses to spend crazy money on designer this and that's, versus stuff from eBay and Ali Express, or how often she goes to the gym, has her nails done etc, should that determine her rate?  Again, to me, not at all.

t's never occurred to me that 'I have expensive kit' is a negotiation point.  IMO any model is absolutely entitled to want to work for payment in £££.  Let's remember that both sides have a choice.

I've found that some models are still happy to shoot TF.  And that others aren't.  Seems to me that's pretty much very reasonable.  

There's no wasps nest, or at least to me there isn't.  If the model doesn't feel that shooting TF is better than being paid in Sterling, that's fine.

You will invariably get a better standard of model if you offer pay, it's a win win situation - unless you are lucky enough to have a great model want to collab with you. Fantastic models who do it for the love of it are few and far between, and invariably their schedules are busy because they have a day job as well as modelling.

Models are perfectly entitled to ask to be paid, as are photographers, as are event organisers.

Passion and jpegs don't put food on the table :)

I only took up photography when I retired in 2018 and started model photography after Covid, in late 2021. It is a very enjoyable hobby and even though my pockets aren't bursting at the seams with cash I prefer to pay models rather than tfp. I have done a few tfp shoots but I don't really enjoy having to edit photos to a deadline.

Edited by Bergman Greenstreet

nikontogf said

I fully understand that most models use shoots as a way to make a living either part of full time and I would not expect those models to offer TFP just because I’m a hobbiest shooter. As previously stated, I also understand that models have costs too but do those costs amount to the same as a photographer who may spend many thousands of pounds on camera, lighting equipment, computers, editing software and so on. ? I’ll leave that as an open question.

The economics of being camera-ready might surprise you.

Google something like: "how much does the average woman spend on clothes, makeup and self-care in the uk each year?"

The numbers will blow you away. And this is non-models.

In 2024 photographers can get an entirely competent, quite complete set of kit for less than models spend on makeup, hair, fitness and self-care in 12 months, before you even get into the expensive skimpy things photographers here want them to have.

If photographers are spending "many thousands" of pounds on kit now, it's a lifestyle choice, not a practicality. 

It would be an interesting thread to see photographers working out what they can get for £1000, right now, on the internet. I'm completely sure I could kit myself out with an editing laptop, software, a full frame camera and lenses, and a flash.

Edited by Unfocussed Mike

Unfocussed Mike said

ANDY00 said

Stu H said

I've just come back from Aldi, where my offer to pay for my weeks shopping with 10 digital, fully edited shots of the store was laughingly declined.

I should imagine that any offers similar made by a model would also be declined

Prints / digital images/ "exposure" don't pay the bills, and many people - and no doubt more than a few models on here - are living hand to mouth.

If you can't afford to pay a model, then save up enough until you can.

Pretty sure there are a few commercial photographers and studios who would tell you that’s incorrect.

But only a few! 

A tiny fraction of the number there were ten years ago, which is driving the point, right?

That’s just advancement—TV killed the radio star, and the internet killed everything else. While the internet initially gave the fashion and photography industry a huge boost, it also killed it with armchair shopping and cheap, slave-labour clothing companies. This, in turn, wiped out many of the small photography contracts that used to thrive. Mobile phones and cheap cameras have devastated the wedding and baby photography industries, except for a small niche market. As I said, it won’t be long before AI models flood the platforms, which could either push models back to sites like this or flatline the industry entirely. Who knows?

It is what it is, and we take it as it comes. Studios are still running, and from what I see, they work very hard to stay that way, often in a symbiotic relationship with pay-for-hire models.

Nothing wrong with your question on tfp only part that is slightly wrong is the talk about spending money on gear. You spend as much money on gear as you want , just like a model can spend as much money on make up , lingerie & clothes. None of these things will definitely mean anyone will spend money on a photographer or model.

I have been asked this year by models three times to do what are essentially, TF shoots .

This equals the total of the last 12 years.

It is something I make clear that I don't want to do.

What am I getting wrong?

Unfocussed Mike "It would be an interesting thread to see photographers working out what they can get for £1000, right now, on the internet. I'm completely sure I could kit myself out with an editing laptop, software, a full frame camera and lenses, and a flash"

Just did this for my own amusement with a couple adjustments (no flash, two lenses)

£1099.99.

*Interestingly I've made this money back ago too.

Afrofilmviewer

*Ages ago.

Afrofilmviewer said

Unfocussed Mike "It would be an interesting thread to see photographers working out what they can get for £1000, right now, on the internet. I'm completely sure I could kit myself out with an editing laptop, software, a full frame camera and lenses, and a flash"

Just did this for my own amusement with a couple adjustments (no flash, two lenses)

£1099.99.

*Interestingly I've made this money back ago too.

I just started that thread! 

I think there's two things at play here.

One is the changed landscape, which has already been summed up. Models turned to OnlyFans, etc. at the start of the Pandemic and are now far more happy and far more confident in self-shooting.

The other is the squeeze we're all suffering financially, which is going to happen even further once the Halloween Budget (aka "The Autumn Statement") comes out. I would consider myself at the lower echelons of middle-class. Five years ago, I chose to shop at Aldi over Sainsbury's because I appreciated a bargain and could put that money towards a nice little luxury from time-to-time. However, now, things have gone up so much, yet my wages have not, that I now have to shop at Aldi. A pint in my village pub is now pushing dangerously close to the £6 barrier; that's not sustainable (either for me, or indeed the pub frankly speaking) so that's something else I've had to cut back on and when I go out I drink the house rum with a mixer rather than a beer, as it's nearly £1 cheaper.

The reality is even the middle classes are having to make sacrifices; if not now they certainly will after October 30.

However, model rates are also increasing with a model this week asking me if I'd be willing to shoot fashion at a rate of £60ph. They approached me, so it wasn't even an "F off" rate. If people are willing to pay that, great - but I can't justify that sort of expenditure even at higher levels; I too will have to take a step back soon I fear.

In summary, at the moment supply and demand is still doing its thing. Models can name their price and they're still more-or-less getting work. However, my gut feeling is that the current equilibirum is going to falter in the next year as things lke the removal of Winter Fuel Allowance and tax hikes (even Reeves can't pretend they're not coming by this point) bite, and the pool of photographers with the budget to shoot will diminish significantly.

Models may well once again turn to OF; but will the custom be there? In the Pandemic, there was a market of pent-up fustrated people getting paid 80% of their wage to sit on their arse and absolutely no realistic way of spending whatever money was left after outgoings were met; so the disposable income was there as you couldn't exactly spend it down the boozer could you? 

This time, even the middle classes are going to be skint.

However, I do agree if models are now working strictly for pay only, they should modify their profiles accordingly.

This thread was doing just fine without the politics.