Level playing field.

nikontogf said

Ok so probably going to be kicking a huge wasps nest with this but here goes.

For photographers who shoot purely for enjoyment and tend to work TFP. Have you noticed that many models now work predominantly for pay? I’m sure most would be aware that most photographers and for that matter, most male models don’t get paid for their efforts. Models I have contacted recently have all wanted paying, including those stating on their ports that they work TFP or trade. So most models being paid and most photographers not most female models being paid and most male models not. Do we need to level the playing field to make things more fair to all?

We all have expenses. Models buy outfits and accessories. Makeup and so on but photographers spend a lot of money on photographic equipment, insurance, travelling, computer, editing software et.  Not to mention time spent on editing. So why is it that only female models seem to get paid?

For myself, I am beginning to wonder if I should switch to a different area of photography as I can no longer afford the cost incurred in this area f photography. A real blow for me as I very much enjoy what I do.

Thoughts . . .

I shoot 100% TF and have done so since before Sir Tim invented the WWW. It is very true that models can now take perfectly adequate images of themselves, and indeed many do. However quite a lot still like to have their picture taken by a photographer. And there is still plenty of TF around if you look for it. I also found it helpful if one provides studio and costumes, and importantly, allows one's models keep some clothes on. ;-)

Majority of models with whom I have worked are enthusiastic amateurs. Many of whom have jobs, careers, relationships, family-ties and sometimes even religious beliefs that preclude shooting the so-called "higher levels". Many of these people have indicated that absence of such material in my various portfolios was major decoding-factor in working with me.

Indeed, I have never actually asked anyone to pose nude. The only nudes I have ever shot is where a model with whom I have already worked has specifically asked me to do so. Fact is that outside PP and its ilk, majority of people simply don't want nude images of themselves on the internet.

I also find it handy to have my own site, so that I can display and write-up my work in the manner I feel most appropriate. I'd add that the studio, costumes and the web hosting all have costs. And of course, if you shoot TF, your model will likely expect edited images - which in my case can be several day's additional work.

In conclusion, at the risk of stating the obvious, a TF shoot is not a 'free shoot'. If you want to shoot TF, then you really need to create a framework where TF becomes attractive to your potential model(s). That may actually cost more, and take a lot more time and effort, than simply paying a model.

YMMV, of course. :-)

Edited by waist.it

The playing field is level: you want photos, they want to be compensated for their time.

Unfortunately for photographers, the balancing flow from one side to the other is more often money than photos. 

It's still possible to work largely TF if you are brave enough to ask the people around you. About half my portfolio is TF, including some of the art nude, actually.

I haven't looked at your portfolio to write this sentence so it's not critique I am offering. But if you get together a tight, high quality portfolio with clear intent and some artistry that you can show people easily, and you're willing to show it and talk to people about it, you'll be surprised how many people volunteer themselves.

Edited by Unfocussed Mike

its all a matter of perspective... 

my other area of interest is that wildlife/naturephotography and I've (through a lot of saving/eating toast) ended up spending near on 15k in equipment and goodness knows how much in travel/entry fees to try and photograph certain species of birds.... and they don't even always turn up. From that point of view, the rate of return on my investment in wildlife photography is substantially poorer than that of my investment in shooting models (who generally do turn up for the full 2-3hrs that I invest in). 

I also photograph my children a lot and they offer by far the best rate of return in terms of no. of keepers, but they're requests for food/bribes is worse than paying a model. 

When you see it from my point of view, even £50-60 for a model is relatively affordable 

It used to be the case that that more experienced photograhers would expect inexperienced models to pay them, or at least be willing to do TFP while experienced models would expect the photographer to pay and maybe occasionally offer TFP. Those days seem to have gone with even novice models expecting to be paid. In addition I've noticed more and more models not only wanting to be paid but also expecting the photographer to supply them with copies of images.

Rather oddly I've also noticed an increase in commercial shoots expecting models to work TFP and seemingly getting quite a bit of interest from models - it all seems a bit topsy-turvy.

The conversation has been done to death in other threads and many of the points have already been made here but one again:

- There are far more people calling themselves photographers on this site (and others like it) than people calling themselves models. Simple maths dictates there will be more demand for photographers than models. 

- Digital phone technology and the death of physical media have greatly reduced the need for a photographer with a fancy camera. Specifically thinking of models, many don't need a portfolio or even an agency. They can build an online following, create and sell content without the need for any middle men.

- If you want to make money from photography, you need to identify an audience and offer a service/product that no one else is offering (or an existing service/product but at a vastly superior level). You almost certainly will not find that audience on sites like this.

- As there is greater demand for models than photographers it follows that most models will be inundated with TF offers. Therefore if you want models to work with you on a TFP basis, you need to be offering something they can't get elsewhere either in terms of quality or concept. Very few models are just here for the love of modelling, and even those who are will be propositioned with the same handful of tired, cliched shoot ideas over and over again. If they aren't getting any creative or personal fulfilment out of a shoot, why on earth would they do it for free?

To go back to the OP, you can't level a playing field when not everybody is on the same field, or even playing the same sport. Users of this site are here for multiple reasons, and have varying goals. 

KernowPhoto said

Rather oddly I've also noticed an increase in commercial shoots expecting models to work TFP 

Influencers are the new victims of "we need this but there's no budget for photography"

Edited by Unfocussed Mike

It never was a level playing field.

A mediocre professional with the cost of a reasonable priced new car in medium format camera gear and a few studio flashes could charge models for portfolio shots because few others could compete.
There was a cost barrier to entry.
Nice for those on the inside.

There is a level paying field now.
Anyone can pay £200 for a decent used mobile phone (Samsung S10) and produce good enough stills and video for internet use.
Or they can pay £300 for a used crop frame Canon DSLR and a 50/1.8 and prduce excellent portfolio pictures.
That includes bright young models....

All it takes is the flexibility of thought and the work ethic to learn how to use limited, cheap gear.

Edited by Huw

As nice as the offers I get are, Tf images and 'exposure' doesn't help me pay my 900 a month rent before bills! I used to do the odd TF with amazing photographers but that was way back when I had a full time travel job and did modelling on the side, now this is my only income since being made redundant so no amount of pretty pictures will keep the landlord off my back.

Everly Rose said

As nice as the offers I get are, Tf images and 'exposure' doesn't help me pay my 900 a month rent before bills! 

Right. TF shoots have to be quite immediately worth the paid work they would replace. And they never are.

Gothic Image said

For a lot of models on here, it's their full time job.  How many photographers on here have photography as their full time job?  That will explain why the money flow is the way it is, it's nothing to do with a level playing field.

Or perhaps may models are doing this as their full time job as they are getting paid. Photographers aren’t because they are not getting paid which is exactly the point I was trying to make. 

nikontogf said

Gothic Image said

For a lot of models on here, it's their full time job.  How many photographers on here have photography as their full time job?  That will explain why the money flow is the way it is, it's nothing to do with a level playing field.

Or perhaps may models are doing this as their full time job as they are getting paid. Photographers aren’t because they are not getting paid which is exactly the point I was trying to make. 

It's barely possible for a photographer to make photography their full time job full stop -- shooting models or not. But I wouldn't be surprised if less than one in a thousand of the shoots done by photographers on purpleport in the last ten years have earned them any money anyway. 

A few models here are making it as a full-time job.

Many of the rest are setting their prices because time spent on non-earning tasks often has an opportunity cost in terms of lost work hours.

And a significant proportion are setting prices they never get paid, I suspect, either because nobody books them or because actually they apply for castings and take what is offered.

Prices are offers, not evidence of past payment.

nikontogf said

Gothic Image said

For a lot of models on here, it's their full time job.  How many photographers on here have photography as their full time job?  That will explain why the money flow is the way it is, it's nothing to do with a level playing field.

Or perhaps may models are doing this as their full time job as they are getting paid. Photographers aren’t because they are not getting paid which is exactly the point I was trying to make. 

That's certainly one way of looking at it, they would soon stop if it didn't pay enough.  I'd suggest that on the other hand hobby photographers don't need to be paid in order to carry on?  See the comment from Everly Rose above.

Edited by Gothic Image

Gothic Image said

nikontogf said

Gothic Image said

For a lot of models on here, it's their full time job.  How many photographers on here have photography as their full time job?  That will explain why the money flow is the way it is, it's nothing to do with a level playing field.

Or perhaps may models are doing this as their full time job as they are getting paid. Photographers aren’t because they are not getting paid which is exactly the point I was trying to make. 

That's certainly one way of looking at it, they would soon stop if it didn't pay enough.  I'd suggest that on the other hand hobby photographers don't need to be paid in order to carry on?  See the comment from Everly Rose above.

Edited by Gothic Image

Hmm....

You'd need to pay me to shoot "glamour" - or do an hour of "art nude" for each hour of "glamour".
So far, I've avoided having to take any photos of someone with a stilletto heel stuck in their knickers   ;)

I've just come back from Aldi, where my offer to pay for my weeks shopping with 10 digital, fully edited shots of the store was laughingly declined.

I should imagine that any offers similar made by a model would also be declined

Prints / digital images/ "exposure" don't pay the bills, and many people - and no doubt more than a few models on here - are living hand to mouth.

If you can't afford to pay a model, then save up enough until you can.

"Have you noticed that many models now work predominantly for pay?"

Errrr Yesss! Surely one would expect that to be the default position on PP. (Those that are kind enough to agree to TFP collaborations are the exceptions.)

Thanks to EVERYONE who has! ❤️