References

Admin said

Back on Topic!

apologies, just discussing not debating but these Threads are so much fun :-)

Gerry99111 said

...we are dealing with real human interaction not business supplying goods. A scoring system would change that dynamic significantly and make that no more reliable for the reasons mentioned.

Anyway I am sure admin would love to get messaged everytime someone feels the score they were allocated was unfair

^ This

Gerry99111 said

... if a shoot didn't go the way I'd hoped, I would take the blame myself for booking the wrong model, which I have done before with hindsight and not leave a reference or score. Others may decide it was 100% the models fault and give them a 1.

That immediately throws a scoring system into failure. Some people will pressurise into leaving 5s. Others will always give 3 to appear neutral. Some miserable people will leave 1s all the time because they just don't like modelling anymore but need the cash. I know one model that would fit that

^ And this

Valis Volkova said

Personally, it doesn’t matter to me how old the references are, as long as they are some. I think most models are a good judge of character, we get a feel for people based on their communication and if anything feels a bit off, that’s when we will reach out to other models for a private reference and it works like a treat!

In my 13 years on PP, I have only ever had 2 bad experiences on here. One was genuinely dangerous (negative reference was left and they were later removed from here!) and the other time was more of a personality conflict, which in that situation we both agreed to not leave each other a reference.

I don’t understand why people leave positive references when they’re not warranted, I think it’s best to not leave one at all.

^ And this as well. 

Lenswonder said

tandi you'll never always get the truth when contacting people. Whoever you contact you'll get their story and it could be a fairytale.

^ But not this. Definitely not this dollop of alarmism.

Scoring system for references doesn't work.

Look at the mess that ebay is in, not to mention when you get visits from tradesmen working for large companies they tell you to score them highly as it has a detrimental effect on them.

The reference system - while not perfect - is fine how it is.

Am I worried about the sizable gap in my references?

No.

I have a good reason for it, and ultimately, if models decide that this gap no longer makes me trustworthy - so be it. I'm not much of a loss to model photography as it is, and I won't leave a gap if I pull the plug altogether.

PP references work just like references from a previous employer when you are considering hiring someone.

You read the reference, then you ring the person (no writing!) to find out if it meant what you thought.

For example "he should go far in his next job" might mean "he shoud go as far away as possible".....

tandi said

Please, what is a DNR, I keep thinking "do not attempt resuscitation"

Sorry I used it, Do not recommend .

If you would recommend someone you can say why at length. If not, that's all you can say.   

There no gradation of it, so it's read as "I'd say avoid", and the only model(s) I wouldn't encourage people to book didn't do anything to brand them with "avoid". 
Unfortunately grading means people get upset if you give 2 or 3 stars out of 5, so it's better to have what we've got. 

The scoring idea comes around more often than Adele on Heart.

How do you grade it, though? "1 - Got his dick out" to "5 - No notes" so as CalmNudes rightly said, someone with 2 or 3 is going to take umbridge.  I honestly think the system we have is the least worst option.  You could possibly improve it with the broad, fixed "reasons" for a DNR which AdultFolio & ModelFolio do but beyond that, I'm not sure what else can realistically be done without opening a very large can of worms or a hundred.

My reading of a "DNR" would be that the model could be difficult to work with. 

But there is a lot of pressure within the referencing system as well.

Last week I had a model cancel on me the night before the shoot, telling me that she'd been admitted to hospital.  Naturally, I didn't DNS her (12 hours' notice) because I've taken her at her word that she's in hospital and it would clearly be unfair to do so.  The question is, should I go back and retrospectively DNS if she didn't re-book once back working?

JME Studios said

The scoring idea comes around more often than Adele on Heart.

How do you grade it, though? "1 - Got his dick out" to "5 - No notes" so as CalmNudes rightly said, someone with 2 or 3 is going to take umbridge.  I honestly think the system we have is the least worst option.  You could possibly improve it with the broad, fixed "reasons" for a DNR which AdultFolio & ModelFolio do but beyond that, I'm not sure what else can realistically be done without opening a very large can of worms or a hundred.

My reading of a "DNR" would be that the model could be difficult to work with. 

But there is a lot of pressure within the referencing system as well.

Last week I had a model cancel on me the night before the shoot, telling me that she'd been admitted to hospital.  Naturally, I didn't DNS her (12 hours' notice) because I've taken her at her word that she's in hospital and it would clearly be unfair to do so.  The question is, should I go back and retrospectively DNS if she didn't re-book once back working?

Sounds a lot like blackmail to me. You made a choice at the time, and the time has passed. If the model hasn’t rebooked, why haven’t you messaged her to ask if she wants to rebook, Instead, you’re dropping this passive-aggressive forum grenade about leaving a negative reference for something you literally agreed to? :-) This is the issue with references in a nutshell—people use them as currency or weapons. Honestly, they’re not worth the keyboard they’re typed on. :-)

Edited by ANDY00

JME Studios you check her FB and see if she was in hospital or partying...

JME Studios if you believe she's genuinely in hospital no reason for a DNR. Also if you don't feel you have been affected like you could have done something else on the day , no reason for a DNR.

Stalking now, eh? Who needs a reference system when you've got Sherlock Holmes-level  skills? :-P Honestly. 

I've highlighted it as a real world example of a grey area, 'tis all. I'm not wishing to blackmail anyone; but merely suggesting such an excuse could be a way to get out of getting a DNS.

JME Studios said

The scoring idea comes around more often than Adele on Heart.

How do you grade it, though? "1 - Got his dick out" to "5 - No notes" so as CalmNudes rightly said, someone with 2 or 3 is going to take umbridge.  I honestly think the system we have is the least worst option.  You could possibly improve it with the broad, fixed "reasons" for a DNR which AdultFolio & ModelFolio do but beyond that, I'm not sure what else can realistically be done without opening a very large can of worms or a hundred.

My reading of a "DNR" would be that the model could be difficult to work with. 

But there is a lot of pressure within the referencing system as well.

Last week I had a model cancel on me the night before the shoot, telling me that she'd been admitted to hospital.  Naturally, I didn't DNS her (12 hours' notice) because I've taken her at her word that she's in hospital and it would clearly be unfair to do so.  The question is, should I go back and retrospectively DNS if she didn't re-book once back working?

Unless I knew for certain that she was telling a porkie I'd assume that her reason was genuine, and so I wouldn't leave a negative ref.  

Yes - some people tell porkies. They're the ones who we hear about and who people gossip about. But, rightly or wrongly, I like to think that the greater proportion of people are honest. We tend not to hear a lot about those people because 'so-and-so was genuine' isn't gossip-worthy. 

As for your question about retrospectively leaving a negative ref if she didn't rebook, it it were me I wouldn't do that. I'd assume (rightly or wrongly, once again) that she had a reason for not rebooking and I'd move on. One of my mum's sayings was 'one volunteer is worth ten pressed men'. To transfer that to model photography, one model who is keen to shoot is worth a helluva lot more than several who have to have their arms twisted.   

Edited by Orson Carter

JME Studios you are the one who decides whether or not to leave any reference. So whether you think it's an excuse or not it's your decision.

JME Studios said

I've highlighted it as a real world example of a grey area, 'tis all. I'm not wishing to blackmail anyone; but merely suggesting such an excuse could be a way to get out of getting a DNS.

Maybe it just came across that way, but if a model or photographer has to cancel a shoot for whatever reason—everyone has to at some point—to be honest, the reason is nobody’s business. You either accept it or you don’t, but what you don’t do is accept it and then pocket it to use as leverage later. You already accepted it—it’s over, done, bye-bye.

Do people sometimes lie when canceling? Of course they do, but so what? The only thing that matters is that they need to cancel for whatever reason. At that point, you can either accept it or get upset. The easiest option is to just chalk it up to experience and try to fill the time with another booking instead.

Life is short :-) 

I have only ever had two no shows in 40 years.

First one...   "Mother attempted suicide".
No evidence either way from model's social media.
Did not leave a reference.

Shortly after, the model left PP, and I heard from other locals that she uswed that excuse repeatedly.

Second one...   "My father died last night".
Quick check of FB showed that it was true.
Did not leave a reference.

So, I tend to assume the reason is genuine.