References

Redhillphoto I think by design, there's an attitude of "don't shit where you eat" when it comes to a model DNRing a photographer.

In a TFP situation, a model might be more inclined to come forward but in the majority of cases there's a customer/supplier dynamic. It's a lot harder, psychologically speaking, for a supplier to DNR a customer when they've been paid, often handsomely, for their services.

Please, what is a DNR, I keep thinking "do not attempt resuscitation"

Claret said

I don’t think that it would worry me too much if there was a time lapse since the last reference - I guess because I am aware that I myself had not shot for a while after lockdown and when I did start again, it was mainly with photographers who are not members of PP, so no new references were gained.

For me it is more important that there ARE references (meaning I can contact models for feedback if so required) , that there is a decent amount of work shown on the portfolio and the main factor is - communication between us goes well. :) So no, I don't think it would put me off at all!

Interesting answer.

The bit in bold, As I'm on a freebie account I can only show 15 images would my port put you off from working with me.

There no chance of me coming a full member on here, I did over ten years of that never again, My old account is dead and buried for good.

It would be nice to know one way or the other.

Thank you.

tandi said

It's best to choose who you work with and for wisely.

I'd love to see a safety rating system for photographers that only models could see, and a rating system for models that only photographers could see.

Edited by tandi

Good suggestion. 

Firstadekit said

Trying to get references out of full time models tends to be like trying to get blood from a stone, others that have been here for 10+ years may think otherwise, but as someone who hasn't, it just doesn't seem to happen. If I get one great, but I'm not going to take it personally, although I know some overthink it and may think they did something to upset them. 

Getting a reference from a model you've worked with isn't mandatory its there choice, Like it's your choice to not to leave the model one.

I wouldn't get upset about it. "it happens"  Thats life.

sd photography54 said

tandi said

It's best to choose who you work with and for wisely.

I'd love to see a safety rating system for photographers that only models could see, and a rating system for models that only photographers could see.

Edited by tandi

Good suggestion. 

Can't be done, sorry. We have model/photographers and photographer/models. If the site generated a ratings system only seen by creators, every photographer would just create a bogus model account, and every model would create a bogus photography account. Curiosity doesn’t just die on this site—even the people who block you peek beneath the block to read your posts and check out your picture uploads. :-P - True story :-)

ANDY00 said

sd photography54 said

tandi said

It's best to choose who you work with and for wisely.

I'd love to see a safety rating system for photographers that only models could see, and a rating system for models that only photographers could see.

Edited by tandi

Good suggestion. 

Can't be done, sorry. We have model/photographers and photographer/models. If the site generated a ratings system only seen by creators, every photographer would just create a bogus model account, and every model would create a bogus photography account. Curiosity doesn’t just die on this site—even the people who block you peek beneath the block to read your posts and check out your picture uploads. :-P - True story :-)

I see your point, why not rate everyone then out of 5 and you could simply average it to ensure it was fair based upon the number of votes :-)

tandi said

ANDY00 said

sd photography54 said

tandi said

It's best to choose who you work with and for wisely.

I'd love to see a safety rating system for photographers that only models could see, and a rating system for models that only photographers could see.

Edited by tandi

Good suggestion. 

Can't be done, sorry. We have model/photographers and photographer/models. If the site generated a ratings system only seen by creators, every photographer would just create a bogus model account, and every model would create a bogus photography account. Curiosity doesn’t just die on this site—even the people who block you peek beneath the block to read your posts and check out your picture uploads. :-P - True story :-)

I see your point, why not rate everyone then out of 5 and you could simply average it to ensure it was fair based upon the number of votes :-)

Honestly—and I’ve seen it tried every which way over the years—the best system is the one we have now. Models ask creatives who have worked with others for honest feedback, or they use private Facebook pages for reviews. Although, let’s be real, photographers see those reviews too and screenshot them, so it’s never fully private. The most efficient way is for creatives to contact people who’ve worked with someone privately. Any system the site could set up would never be fully trusted, not because of any fault of the site or admin, but simply because people aren’t always honest in reviews for the reasons I’ve mentioned.

For example, if you worked with a photographer who paid for half- and full-day shoots, and while they weren’t great for any particular reason, they also weren’t awful, would you risk giving them a bad or completely honest review, knowing it might cost you another full-day paid shoot? Or would you just say, 'Great day shooting, lovely person, can’t wait to shoot again…'? but if someone messaged you and asked what he was like privately you may be most likely to give honest down to earth view.....

ANDY00 said

sd photography54 said

tandi said

It's best to choose who you work with and for wisely.

I'd love to see a safety rating system for photographers that only models could see, and a rating system for models that only photographers could see.

Edited by tandi

Good suggestion. 

Can't be done, sorry. We have model/photographers and photographer/models. If the site generated a ratings system only seen by creators, every photographer would just create a bogus model account, and every model would create a bogus photography account. Curiosity doesn’t just die on this site—even the people who block you peek beneath the block to read your posts and check out your picture uploads. :-P - True story :

I was going to on if it could be done,

I never thought about bogus accounts. 🤣

sd photography54

I think I probably phrased that in a very unfortunate way, my apologies! It is less about high quantities of images than it is about enough images to verify the person is actually a photographer (you would be surprised how many ‘lurkers’ there are who have no intention of ever actually shooting or if they do, for all the wrong reasons) and also to check the type of work that is uploaded. So no, a smaller port would not put me off, but for example a huge port filled with very low quality images might.

(Hope my rambling makes sense - covid brain and no coffee yet do not make for coherent thought processes haha)

ANDY00 said

Honestly—and I’ve seen it tried every which way over the years—the best system is the one we have now. Models ask creatives who have worked with others for honest feedback, or they use private Facebook pages for reviews. Although, let’s be real, photographers see those reviews too and screenshot them, so it’s never fully private. The most efficient way is for creatives to contact people who’ve worked with someone privately. Any system the site could set up would never be fully trusted, not because of any fault of the site or admin, but simply because people aren’t always honest in reviews for the reasons I’ve mentioned.

For example, if you worked with a photographer who paid for half- and full-day shoots, and while they weren’t great for any particular reason, they also weren’t awful, would you risk giving them a bad or completely honest review, knowing it might cost you another full-day paid shoot? Or would you just say, 'Great day shooting, lovely person, can’t wait to shoot again…'? but if someone messaged you and asked what he was like privately you may be most likely to give honest down to earth view.....

You are right of course, it's best to contact the people giving a reference.

Before reading this group post, if I would have read someone's reference and they said "I had a lovely time shooting with Mr Hyde" only joking lol, then I would be encouraged to work with that person if they wanted the same thing from the shoot as I did.

That said I'm new, I have only shot with one other photographer (bar hubby) and that was a fun shoot not for publication/display when a photographer jumped in to take some pics at one of my husbands shoots. I did reference the photographer though because he seemed a nice respectful guy, plus he honoured our agreement and didn't publish or display the pics to anyone, because it wasn't a SFW shoot.

I have worked more with studios than photographers approx 9 studios over 26 shoots with my husband (14 this year, 12 since 2020), though I have only referenced 1 of those because that studio I found via PP and the owner/team and the studio were great. I found others via Google between 2020 and 2023, out of those 8 studios, 2 of those I would not reference.

This thread was asking about whether models are overly concerned about gaps in references. I didn't see an invite to suggest redesign.

The current system is one where negatives are purely down to did not show or is not recommended. No reference is purely conjecture as the person could feel they cannot recommend but also cannot not recommend either. Or they just are reluctant to leave references generally. Or they didn't get to know the person well enough to form an opinion. Or they are waiting for images.

Introduce scoring and when someone is given a 1 for almost any reason from the fair to downright malicious for example, the model failed to have their levels pushed or the photographer asked for a discount that the model accepted but didn't like.

A scoring system is just like allowing negative written references with all the connotations that implies for being misused. Even worse, the person cannot see their own score.

People who regularly give low scores regardless of reason may lose shoots. People who regularly give high scores may be doing so to gain shoots at the expense of covering up others bad behaviour.

We are dealing with real people interactions, not some random seller of pile cream on amazon

Gerry99111 said

This thread was asking about whether models are overly concerned about gaps in references. I didn't see an invite to suggest redesign.

The current system is one where negatives are purely down to did not show or is not recommended. No reference is purely conjecture as the person could feel they cannot recommend but also cannot not recommend either. Or they just are reluctant to leave references generally. Or they didn't get to know the person well enough to form an opinion. Or they are waiting for images.

Introduce scoring and when someone is given a 1 for almost any reason from the fair to downright malicious for example, the model failed to have their levels pushed or the photographer asked for a discount that the model accepted but didn't like.

A scoring system is just like allowing negative written references with all the connotations that implies for being misused. Even worse, the person cannot see their own score.

People who regularly give low scores regardless of reason may lose shoots. People who regularly give high scores may be doing so to gain shoots at the expense of covering up others bad behaviour.

We are dealing with real people interactions, not some random seller of pile cream on amazon

Some have previously said that a lack of up to date references would be a concern, others have said that no matter how many positive up to date references there could still be an issue with that model or photographer, so you have to contact the person giving the reference directly to get the full story.

Businesses are rated all the time, if a 1 to 5 star rating was introduced which everyone could see, possibly people would be far more professional, not let other people down by not showing up, not pressure level increases, direct the model but be polite and generally make a good impression :-)

It's only a bit of fun Gerry, suggestions are only a wishes, the genie rarely grants them.

tandi I personally think a rating system wouldn't work. I guess the reference system is more about the concept of safety rather than how much you loved the photo or how communication flowed.

I think it would create unnecessary issues e.g. I'm deducting this model one star because she had a bruise on her left knee or I'm deducting this photographer because I don't like his style of work even though he's paying me

I guess the current system keeps it objective and to the point of are they safe/a complete arse

It's a great idea though and it's great we have these spaces to discuss it 💜

If you're that concerned, what's the problem with simply doing your own due dilligence?  Contact the people who've left the references and ask for more in depth feedback.

I've done that in the past.