References

My question now is why models leave a good reference to a photographer that actually had a bad experience?

Redhillphoto said

My question now is why models leave a good reference to a photographer that actually had a bad experience?

Why does a shop serve a customer thats difficult ? Why do sites keep members that cause problems?  

I didn't shoot for 9 months, pre and post surgery. No references as a result. Did that affect people working with me? Totalling not, people don't change in just a year or two. Sometimes people are looking for a reason to turn down a shoot and using the No Recent Reference reason might be just a kind way, so they think to say no. 

Most of my refs are from TF shoots or the occasional group shoot, not that I expect group shoot references because I find it unfair to expect the model to remember who everyone was and they also spend that little time with someone, do they really get to make a fair assessment of who they are unless they clearly were able to direct the models and set up lights and helped others who may have struggled had that other person not been around.

Trying to get references out of full time models tends to be like trying to get blood from a stone, others that have been here for 10+ years may think otherwise, but as someone who hasn't, it just doesn't seem to happen. If I get one great, but I'm not going to take it personally, although I know some overthink it and may think they did something to upset them. 

ANDY00 said

Redhillphoto said

My question now is why models leave a good reference to a photographer that actually had a bad experience?

Why does a shop serve a customer thats difficult ? Why do sites keep members that cause problems?  

And how did Harvey Weinstein get away with it for so long?

Unfocussed Mike said

ANDY00 said

Redhillphoto said

My question now is why models leave a good reference to a photographer that actually had a bad experience?

Why does a shop serve a customer thats difficult ? Why do sites keep members that cause problems?  

And how did Harvey Weinstein get away with it for so long?

As I said—money or fear, especially fear if the artist (model or photographer) is well-established and has a large following. Harvey would fall into that category. There have been a few very sought-after photographers on here with huge followings who turned out to be abusing models, yet they had thousands of glowing references. The same models were showcasing the images like a badge of honor until someone finally spoke out. Then the MeToo movement blew up on them. It always catches up with them in the end

i think though I have a slightly different view of the harvey thing than most to be honest.

Edited by ANDY00

Alyssa Taylor said

Honestly, references don't mean that much as I've found anyone I've had a seriously bad experience with had plenty of positives, and others with plenty of positives whom I have checked in with models have admitted negative experiences.

I agree, and have heard this from several models.  In my opinion it's far more important for a model to talk to other models that the photographer has worked with.

Gothic Image Absolutely, for many many people I work with I've reached out directly to 3-5 people from their references and it's shocking what you find out. It's a scary world but you wouldn't be able to reach out to these people without the referencing system so I really respect its placd

Huw said

FiL said

I dump my references regularly - close to 1,000 over the years.

Whilst having no public references undoubtedly makes a difference to some models, it seems to make little difference to most - 27 shoots so far this year with others in the pipeline. I'm hoping to have a break in Jan/Feb.

I am confused. :)

8 years on here, 27 shoots this year, but no references on here?

Do you not shoot with PP models?

Do you refuse references?

Or have you found a way to delete references from your PP profile?

You can't refuse references - the site doesn't currently provide an opt-out of the public referencing system.

You can request that a model doesn't leave you a reference. There was a time when such a request resulted in some models being visibly upset and in a few cases tearful. Much less so nowadays - models seem to typically only leave a reference if the photographer leaves them one first. Which works for me.

As to why the exchange of references is less de rigueur than it used to be - I suspect most experienced models now recognise that public references don't contribute to model safety in the way they once believed they might.

More recently, PP kindly offered to delete all my references which meant I didn't need to take the nuclear option. My first 'dump' was 330 references 13 years ago.

FiL    Thanks   :)

Unfocussed Mike said

Margo Jost said

Unfocussed Mike if you live at Number 4 Privet Drive......😉

No.

29 Acacia Road. 

Wow! Just around the corner from me:

22 Acacia Avenue

https://youtu.be/T5WpPLRrhac?si=81Uk6FDTtzptmcgM

Alyssa Taylor out of curiosity do you or do you know of models searching forum posts to figure out if the photographer might be a twonk (it’s a cog option on profiles to see all forum posts) and would such posts put you off?

Firstadekit Never heard of people searching forum posts, it tends to go in model safety groups if we want to know more about someone or we search them to see if existing posts are there. Great way to protect ourselves 💜 most things are simply word of mouth

Unfocussed Mike said

ANDY00 said

Redhillphoto said

My question now is why models leave a good reference to a photographer that actually had a bad experience?

Why does a shop serve a customer thats difficult ? Why do sites keep members that cause problems?  

And how did Harvey Weinstein get away with it for so long?

Mohamed Fayed , (he was never entitled to use Al-Fayed which aiui implies 'head of clan Fayed') Weinstein, and the rest get away with stuff because people don't believe they could be monsters; and of course people who look like monsters don't make successful predators.

I can understand why people don't tell unpleasant truths, although models should leave DNR references for bad photographers, and tell PP admin what was bad in case of reprisals, I can understand why they don't - though that leads to members who should be removed remaining for lack of evidence. What beats me is how models come to feel they must say something nice in these cases. 

To the original question, if a model's references are all very old, suggesting she's taken a break and come back, I'd like to see work and references from after her return, and I guess it works the other way too. 

Redhillphoto Money