References

Honestly, references don't mean that much as I've found anyone I've had a seriously bad experience with had plenty of positives, and others with plenty of positives whom I have checked in with models have admitted negative experiences.

Seeing your amount of positives, although I'd prefer recent references it wouldn't put me off booking with you 😊 the only time not having recent references may put me off is if you already had very few e.g. 2/3 I may then ask if you could book a studio

Your images are beautiful by the way!

Thank you Alyssa Taylor . I appreciate how important references can be for models, especially for new models just starting out. It's important to stay safe. 

StuArtful2 Definitely, they really have their uses and it's an amazing tool. I've only recently began taking them with a pinch of salt but starting out a couple years ago they were a life saver. You have many positives and these will reflect well on you..

I don’t think that it would worry me too much if there was a time lapse since the last reference - I guess because I am aware that I myself had not shot for a while after lockdown and when I did start again, it was mainly with photographers who are not members of PP, so no new references were gained.

For me it is more important that there ARE references (meaning I can contact models for feedback if so required) , that there is a decent amount of work shown on the portfolio and the main factor is - communication between us goes well. :) So no, I don't think it would put me off at all!

Positive references mean not a huge amount in reality apart from boosting the ego and giving a warm feeling.

I've personally had bad experiences with people who have had all good references and I know many other models that have experienced the same.

I also remember one occasion in my first few months on here when a photographer contacted me to shoot and I just got a bad feeling about him so I contacted his references who had all given him positives and they all, bar one came back to me to say do NOT shoot with him.

Models will give good references to bad photographers for many different and fair reasons and that is just pat and parcel on here so no one should ever take a reference at face value.

Saying that I personally do think references have their place even if you can't trust them because for the very example above. I had a list of models I could contact to get the real story and without the referencing system it would have been far harder to do that.

So references do have a place but I don't think any self respecting model would base their opinion on them, they would do their due diligence and decide from that, not the refs themselves 🙂

And I've just realised that I've said all that and not actually answered the question you asked 🙈 it's late 😬😄

I would definitely say that the number of refs wouldn't matter to most models, we don't need to contact 100 models though obviously you would hope that the more positive refs a photographer has the less chance they are of being dodgy (that isn't always the case as we all know but you would hope....), I think most would be happy with say 10 positive refs under the belt that they can contact.

Regarding the upto date refs, I don't actually know if that's something I would need or not. I would probably say no personally as long as there are some refs but I can see why some models would want newish refs. It would maybe look a little odd if someone hadn't had any new refs in say 10 years for example.

I do sometimes think though that photographers get a bit too worried about making sure they have piles and piles and piles of positive refs, most models just want to see some evidence that the photographer is normal. Lol

Edited by Margo Jost

Margo Jost said

most models just want to see some evidence that the photographer is normal. Lol

Pretty sure this can't be it. Are any of us normal!? 

I dump my references regularly - close to 1,000 over the years.

Whilst having no public references undoubtedly makes a difference to some models, it seems to make little difference to most - 27 shoots so far this year with others in the pipeline. I'm hoping to have a break in Jan/Feb.

Unfocussed Mike if you live at Number 4 Privet Drive......😉

Edited by Margo Jost

Margo Jost said

Unfocussed Mike if you live at Number 4 Privet Drive......😉

No.

29 Acacia Road. 

My PP is mainly somewhere I can show all genres that I shoot, including things that are not acceptable on social media.

Most of my models are not sourced on here so my references are a tiny portion of actual shoots.

I have no personal faith in the reference system as over the years I have witnessed so many people with large numbers of positive references be removed from the site for predatory behaviour.

I often wonder if my lack of references would put models on this site off... but social media still has a constant supply so I don't get too hung up on it.

Edited by Pix Photography

FiL said

I dump my references regularly - close to 1,000 over the years.

Whilst having no public references undoubtedly makes a difference to some models, it seems to make little difference to most - 27 shoots so far this year with others in the pipeline. I'm hoping to have a break in Jan/Feb.

I am confused. :)

8 years on here, 27 shoots this year, but no references on here?

Do you not shoot with PP models?

Do you refuse references?

Or have you found a way to delete references from your PP profile?

Margo Jost said

I also remember one occasion in my first few months on here when a photographer contacted me to shoot and I just got a bad feeling about him so I contacted his references who had all given him positives and they all, bar one came back to me to say do NOT shoot with him.

Models will give good references to bad photographers for many different and fair reasons and that is just pat and parcel on here so no one should ever take a reference at face value.

 

I believe that this may affect paid togs/mods more because they may think it could deter other bookings, free models wouldn't care and reference without the same concern.

Regardless, it's harmless if a photographer or model gives a positive reference when they only had a less than positive professional experience, after all people don't always work well together.

The problem I have is if that less than positive experience included anything inappropriate or behaviour likely to cause concern, because that means others will have to suffer the same and it may eventually escalate due positive references which condoned such behaviour. In this case the person giving a positive reference is misleading others and allowing it to continue.

It's really very good advice to contact those who give references because you may get more information that will help you far more than reading the reference.

What’s a reference really worth? On PP, is it for a two-hour shoot? Three? Half a day? If a photographer is regularly paying models on a weekly or monthly basis, taking decent but not outstanding images yet acting like a bit of a twat, would a model risk leaving a bad review and losing that steady income? On the flip side, if a model is great to shoot with but behaves like a diva or is unprofessional in other ways, would a photographer leave a bad review, knowing they probably won’t work together again—especially when models are in short supply? Bad reviews might also scare others off from working with you, fearing you'll ruin their perfect record.

I’d be much more inclined to believe a review from a TF shoot than a paid one, but paid shoots do bring more interest because they signal you're a paying client.

I’ve been on PP since the start, with one account or another, and I was on Purestorm before that. Some of the worst offenders, on both sides of the lens, had thousands of glowing references. At least models now have private Facebook groups where they can talk honestly about photographers and share real reviews with each other.

And of course, people can have petty fallouts and leave bad reviews that aren’t even about the shoot itself. I’ve seen people wanting to remove good reviews years later just because they’re no longer friends—ridiculous, right?

Most people on this site have already decided whether they want to work with you long before they even check your references. Your images and profile notes usually give a far more accurate impression than the references ever will.

The most important thing is to keep safety at the forefront—always let someone know where you’re going and arrange to check in after the shoot. Safety is No. 1. And try not to be a twat on shoots. Sure, you might get a glowing review that you’ve essentially paid for, but on private pages, they’re likely telling everyone the real, unfiltered version.

And finally, it’s the quality that counts, not the quantity. Your portfolio tells the truth; the references just back it up

It's best to choose who you work with and for wisely.

I'd love to see a safety rating system for photographers that only models could see, and a rating system for models that only photographers could see.

Edited by tandi