Judge complaint, model not looking at Camera

Unfocussed Mike said

DMG Photography said

I’ve just taken the plunge and entered the 2025 SWPA.  They lifted the restrictions about having release forms for practically everything in your images.  I was going to submit entries into the Portrait category, but they stipulate that your subject has to look directly into the camera, so they can see the relationship between subject and photographer in their expression. 

Sheer comedy!

This sounds like a very restrictive criteria for Portrait, then I looked up SWPA and found out it is the South West Pony Association so that probably explains a great deal :-)

Surely the only relationship is a professional one where they both work together to create a work of art? I pose for my photographer husband, our relationship has nothing to do with anything we create, it's like we are work colleagues on a shoot, we just strive to create something, anything but it's seriously difficult!

Edited by tandi

tandi said

Unfocussed Mike said

DMG Photography said

I’ve just taken the plunge and entered the 2025 SWPA.  They lifted the restrictions about having release forms for practically everything in your images.  I was going to submit entries into the Portrait category, but they stipulate that your subject has to look directly into the camera, so they can see the relationship between subject and photographer in their expression. 

Sheer comedy!

This sounds like a very restrictive criteria for Portrait, then I looked up SWPA and found out it is the South West Pony Association so that probably explains a great deal :-)

Surely the only relationship is a professional one where they both work together to create a work of art? I pose for my photographer husband, our relationship has nothing to do with anything we create, it's like we are work colleagues on a shoot, we just strive to create something, anything but it's seriously difficult!

Edited by tandi

LOL I didn't know there was a South West Pony Association competition!  No, it's the Sony World Photo Awards.

Yep I had to ask my husband, he said that the criteria had been misunderstood by the post I replied to

👍

UkPics said

Hi,

I submitted [...] to a camera club comp. I was marked down for the model not appearing to look at the camera. I suspect the issue is that her iris is so dark you can't see the pupil and being distracted by the catchlights. How should I explain this to any future judge and the implications in his / her comments?

Thanks

Are you suggesting a possible need to address prejudice? ("...the issue is that her iris is so dark..." and "...the implications in his / her comments?").

I think the explanation is probably more innocent, up close the model on the right is clearly looking at the camera, but at a distance or if you squint, the model on the right really does appear to be looking off to camera left. At a distance the model on the left appears to look at the camera, up close it's less certain.

At least that's how it looks to me - but others have different responses.

I've a feeling it might be down to viewing size/distance and spacial frequency, sometimes used in optical illusions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_image.

It's not quite "the dress" but it makes for an interesting image.

The thing that annoys me about club competions is the necessity to name your images. I've started titling mine with irrelevant judge bait - eg a studio portrait called "squint horizon" or a still life called "Chernobyl sunset"

I think that Wavepower summed it up very nicely?

Gothic Image said

I think that Wavepower summed it up very nicely?

Maybe.  (Having scrolled back to find it). 

There are judges who want pictures to confirm to a set of parameters - like people are looking at the camera .

But it reminded me of something old.  

No salesman ever makes the circuit without hearing: "We would buy your product if it were:
(A) built sideways, or
(B) turned over, or
(C) painted blue, or
(D) if it included this one simple added feature." (All this is rarely true but it's easier for a buyer to say than no.)

I wonder if it is easier for the judge to say "People should look at the camera" than "I just don't like it.".  

CalmNudes said

Gothic Image said

I think that Wavepower summed it up very nicely?

Maybe.  (Having scrolled back to find it). 

There are judges who want pictures to confirm to a set of parameters - like people are looking at the camera .

But it reminded me of something old.  

No salesman ever makes the circuit without hearing: "We would buy your product if it were:
(A) built sideways, or
(B) turned over, or
(C) painted blue, or
(D) if it included this one simple added feature." (All this is rarely true but it's easier for a buyer to say than no.)

I wonder if it is easier for the judge to say "People should look at the camera" than "I just don't like it.".  

 

I think the point being made was more "You've submitted an image in a competition, so expect critique.  Don't expect that you will necessarily like that critique"?

Not very good critique when it's debatable as to whether the model is looking at the camera or not, find a new camera club or don't bother. There have been varied views on this thread agreeing and disagreeing with the judges, I'm on the disagree side.

Edited by Lenswonder

Gothic Image said

CalmNudes said

Gothic Image said

I think that Wavepower summed it up very nicely?

Maybe.  (Having scrolled back to find it). 

There are judges who want pictures to confirm to a set of parameters - like people are looking at the camera .

But it reminded me of something old.  

No salesman ever makes the circuit without hearing: "We would buy your product if it were:
(A) built sideways, or
(B) turned over, or
(C) painted blue, or
(D) if it included this one simple added feature." (All this is rarely true but it's easier for a buyer to say than no.)

I wonder if it is easier for the judge to say "People should look at the camera" than "I just don't like it.".  

 

I think the point being made was more "You've submitted an image in a competition, so expect critique.  Don't expect that you will necessarily like that critique"?

That's certainly true. But mine was more that some images just don't grip the view being asked to rule on them.  In that case does the judge say something to the effect of "there are no material faults with the picture but I don't but it bores me". Or do they give a plausible defect?  The model wouldn't look as bored if she gazed the lens, but it wouldn't be transformative, IMHO. As I said before this real should be in single image critique. 

GUYCARNEGIE said

The thing that annoys me about club competions is the necessity to name your images. I've started titling mine with irrelevant judge bait - eg a studio portrait called "squint horizon" or a still life called "Chernobyl sunset"

Typically they are looked at without a photographer name on them, so it is a name selected by the photographer, or an identifier assigned by someone else.

I submit that there would be no fewer photographers complaining that their carefully chosen name was arbitrarily replaced by someone else who copyright harrumph freedom artistry unfair invalid

But you could title it 47†32A *

* and see if the judge pronounces Obelus correctly, or looks daggers at you for it, or turns you into stone† . 

† IE an obelisk

UkPics

I very very rarely enter images into competitions or submit them for critique. I should probably do so as a learning exercise in the interests of 'continual professional development' with the proviso of taking some of the 'constructive critique' with a pinch of salt. As an aside, I do think judges should stick to critiquing the images/prints in front of them and avoid making personal comments about the photographer based on assumptions e.g. 'the photographer is obviously male because a female photographer would have ... etc' or 'the photographer is obviously a beginner/ inexperienced ... or words to that effect. In the OP's example though, I'd take the view that the judge is entitled to their opinion/ to judge in accordance with any published 'rules'. In any event - 'right' or 'wrong' - it's usually if not always written into competition rules that 'the judge's decision is final' in which case nothing positive would be achieved by challenging it. Take their opinion or leave it. If you want to win competitions, probably best to take it on board. If you're happy with the image and not particularly fussed about 'winning' then leave it and quietly carry on doing what you do. You might decide - as I did many years ago - that camera clubs and the like are simply not for you. Just my 2p's worth ... take it or leave it :D

Edited by Synergy Photoworks

A camera club judgement is merely someone else's opinion. Art is subjective and thus the most important thing is are you happy with the image ? If you are, then all's well. If anyone else likes it, that's a bonus. If they don't, it doesn't matter.