Models: art-nude models: The supply of art-nude models: retention, and recruitment of new ones

Orson Carter said

Must emphasise... I'm fussy about who I work with, I do not have deep pockets - definitely not! - and if I feel that a model is taking the p*** with rates and T&Cs, I go elsewhere. That obviously limits the pool of models who I'm able to work with, but the pool is adequate to keep my diary acceptably full.

With respect, how you define deep pockets may differ somewhat from alot of photographers on here. In fact I'd go so far as to say that you are probably not a typical PP photographer.

How much you consider a reasonable hourly or daily rate I have no idea, but, looking at your calendar, feedback models have left for you and feedback you have left for models, it would appear that most weeks you are booking models for a full days shoots, often for 2 days (or more?). Lots (most?) of photographers on here (including myself) can't afford to do that, which suggests your pockets are deeper than most. And it appears that you regularly book models that you have previously worked with, which obviously helps you maintain a full diary, but again probably not typical of alot of photographers on here.

Huw said

On the plus side, we can probably collaborate and book the same model if you are fairly close.

We are looking in mid Wales and I had already thought that might be a possibility in an ideal world, but if there are no models around....................

mightywhite said

Orson Carter said

Must emphasise... I'm fussy about who I work with, I do not have deep pockets - definitely not! - and if I feel that a model is taking the p*** with rates and T&Cs, I go elsewhere. That obviously limits the pool of models who I'm able to work with, but the pool is adequate to keep my diary acceptably full.

With respect, how you define deep pockets may differ somewhat from alot of photographers on here. In fact I'd go so far as to say that you are probably not a typical PP photographer.

How much you consider a reasonable hourly or daily rate I have no idea, but, looking at your calendar, feedback models have left for you and feedback you have left for models, it would appear that most weeks you are booking models for a full days shoots, often for 2 days (or more?). Lots (most?) of photographers on here (including myself) can't afford to do that, which suggests your pockets are deeper than most. And it appears that you regularly book models that you have previously worked with, which obviously helps you maintain a full diary, but again probably not typical of alot of photographers on here.

All is not what it seems! 

Rather than turn this thread into a chat-room I'll message you about it. 

jamesreme said

...

"Art nude is a classification imprecise in its nature, one member specified he meant "naked chicks on rocks"...

Now I can well imagine that it was said with humorous intent and was not meant to be derogatory in any way. But if you were a young model, considering working to art nude, I am finding it difficult to see how it could be seen as complimentary.

...

I think that that may actually be worth trialling, many young people are less sensitive to precise but incomplete descriptions than to circumlocutions.

The actual pictures, I do not think, would put off anyone who was likely to think that art nude was a possible activity worth considering. That also is testable.

Do look at the pictures in question, they are good in several (other) ways.

So, another point emerges from that, I think, which is that there are some art nude images and actual model pictures which may have a positive effect on informing and enabling potential models to consider or explore further.  Exhibitions, books, lectures, critical commentary. Those are at least partly within the control and ability of photographers.

A corollary emerges, which is that there are some, possibly many even beyond Ted Sturgeon's Law, images which would tend to put people who would in some circumstances go on to be good art nude models or figure workers - off.  Images fine, bad images, OK, description of images as art nude which are not, not fine.

FWIW, I think naked chicks on rocks may intrinsically be more likely to be art than not art at least in intent, because rocks are hard and tend to be rough and irregular.  Naked chicks on Karrrimat less so, and naked chicks on thick bouncy mattresses in domestic settings even less.  And I think the population of most interest are likely to be sensitive to that difference.

Huw said

The Ghost said

Chris Green said

As I said on another thread, I did a fashion casting call recently and had 31 applicants within 24 hours. Maybe that just reflects supply and demand of different levels.

I do agree that it helps not to quote a fee in a casting call though. (1) The way most industries work is that service providers quote a fee rather than the person offering the contract.

Actually, I have seen both approaches work, even going up to fairly large (seven figures, not sure I've seen an eight go this way) contracts - companies are invited to bid based on how much they can deliver for the price, not how cheaply they can do the job.

Now that I think about it, (2) maybe the way to recruit new art nude models is to post a casting call, offering a decent rate, perhaps for anonymous work? I can't say it's really something that I've given too much thought.

(1)

I have one US multinational client that likes to set a price for the next two years in a contract;
another US multinational that doesn't even ask the price because speed reliability and accuracy count for more.
The second one seems to be doing better.

(2)

This is an idea I may try. Thanks.

Well, it seemed logical that directly messaging models who don't currently shoot nude would be level pushing, so one has to find a way to get candidates to 'self-select' and the best way to do that would always seem be maximal upside, minimal downside.

Huw said

...

Almost all the great art nude models in the UK are over 30.
Even some that appear not to be.

How long does it take to become great?

So we have identification, notification, recruitment, retention, training, and as noted by Alicia and others, exit plan. 

By training I don't mean something necessarily done by someone else, in an institution, resulting in a certificate or whatever, although each of those things is probably involved in some way, as well as reading books and practising.

(Actually as a component of a BA, hmm.)

For those who might not recognise the word "circumlocutions" when it was used earlier, the Internet defines it as

'The use of unnecessarily wordy language'.

jamesreme said

For those who might not recognise the word "circumlocutions" when it was used earlier, the Internet defines it as

'The use of unnecessarily wordy language'.

Circumlocution... It's the act of being electrocuted while on a roundabout. 

Orson Carter

That's when you need a spin doctor.

.

Edited by Huw

jamesreme said

For those who might not recognise the word "circumlocutions" when it was used earlier, the Internet defines it as

'The use of unnecessarily wordy language'.

If that were so, as given, then the Internet would have got it wrong, circling around the meaning rather than going directly to it, and presenting an epiphenomenon as the gravamen.

One might pick out circum, which means (round)about and point out that when a roundabout is correctly used, one never gets to the point in the centre. 

Circumlocution is to call a spade a manually operated digging implement in the belief that there are people who would be offended by mentioning spades.

For that purpose, a larger number of words must be used, and therefore at least those people who do it would assert that those words and their count were necessary.

Meanwhile, that interjection seems to have gone past any useful point.

MidgePhoto

Okay.

Or say  periphrasis instead.

That reminds me, I must brush up on my Alfred Adler.

harbuzenger said

Huw said

So....   

Is PP somehow an uninspiring or unwelcoming place for potential art nude models, considering the overwhelming concentration glamour content?
Including what might be called "glamour nude".

I would say it isn't considered as a "serious" place to create/showcase art.  Not that art needs to be serious but I'd argue that this exact platform (functionally) being duplicated and rebranded as "artsociety.com" or something to that effect, all dark mode and hipster-y, would be more attractive to many of the artists on this site already, and those that aren't (yet) but would like to dip their toes  and are more interested in being a part of art than glamour.  

Some of the sniffy comments I hear about PP liken it more toward OF-Lite than an art platform, which is no slight on its functionality or usefulness, only it's perception.  Maybe that does put potential models off that would be comfortable working art nude but want to be taken more seriously as an artist than as a "naked model".

?

I've heard the "PurplePorn" moniker on more than one occasion, and frankly a look through "Recently added images" on any one day won't do much to dissuade you.  Perhaps there needs to be some means of explaining to potential models that art nude isn't the same as BLBP?