Lyme Disease - We are all at risk

 

MidgePhoto said, 1562947610

Weil's Disease.  (Named after the person who described it) https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/leptospirosis/

Rare in the UK.


Iris Ferret said, 1562950110

rimфsky° Haha you're not wrong my love, I tend to speed read and it's led to a few embarrassing misunderstandings! Apologies, though very glad that you (hopefully) dispatched of the little sod in such a karmatically satisfying way.

MidgePhoto said, 1562950921

rimфsky° ideally, one doesn't squash the tick, since that must make it more likely to regurgitate infected fluid into your flesh.

rimфsky° said, 1562953854

MidgePhoto I know, it wasn't intentional lol, I have tick tweezers and would have got the bastard out if I had known.

Richard Winn said, 1562954667

Huw said

Richard Winn said

Huw said

U S Lyme disease tends to affect the joints, and that’s all most U.K. Doctors know about. Northern European Lyme disease tends to affect the nervous system, and most U.K. doctors know very little about it because most of the relevant publications are in German or Nordic languages.


Do you by any chance have any links to Norwegian papers Huw? My Norwegian is very rusty, but I would have a chance of translating, it wouldn't be the first paper I've translated. I'm considering writing an article. While.I want to avoid doing it from a clinical angle, there could be some useful stats that could add to any information I can put in, including things not to do.

Testing has become more widespread in recent years, which has probably contributed to the lower incidence of the characteristic rash than quoted in earlier papers. We used to send samples away for testing, but I think we do the initial testing in house, only sending away for confirmation. It used to be mainly labs in the publicised higher incidence areas, hence Plymouth an Southampton. The south west in particular an south in general are high risk areas though.

My wife appears to have got over it five years ago, so I'm not up to date.
I had a lot of international pathologist friends helping at the time, so I wasn't reading it in the original versions.

https://xn--flttsenteret-ucb.no/in-english/


https://www.fhi.no/en/el/insects-and-pests/ticks-and-tick-borne-diseases/borreliose/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33136-0#Abs1

https://ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/media/en/healthtopics/vectors/world-health-day-2014/Documents/factsheet-lyme-borreliosis.pdf

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1198743X14628871

The incidence of positive results has gone up since they improved their techniques about five years ago.

Edited by Huw


Thanks Huw. Because it is a serological diagnosis, it is performed in the Virology department, even though it is a bacteria, so I have very little direct involvement. Most of my knowledge is probably 10 years old, so it predates what you have. Testing has improved since then and is more widely available. I wrote a dissertation on antigenic variation in a number of different bacteria, as part of my Master's, including Borrelia hermsii (one of the causes of relapsing fever) and touched on Borrelia burgdorferi in that dissertation. B. burgdorferi is less antigenically complex, with less variation and doesn't switch in the same way as B. hermsii, but it does still have some of the characteristics, effectively hiding from the immune system.

happypics said, 1562955413

rimфsky° said

IrisFerret said

Oh christ, thank god you spotted it as quickly as you did! My mum has a bit of a phobia about Lyme's Disease and regularly reminds me to be careful when going out into fields and grasses - clearly she's on to something! Hope you feel better soon, what an unfortunate place to be bitten too. This is definitely something that more people need to be aware of. 


:) you have an habit of reading stuff wrong lol, my photo is from October and I never felt unwell (except when the antibiotics kicked in then I felt ill for 24hrs).

For clarity that is the back of my leg so could have been worse, though we reckon I sat on the little bastard when we got in the van so it got it's just deserts.

I am so chuffed this has helped someone already, things happen for a reason I guess....


That is possibly the reason you got the ring, on no account must the tick be squashed as it will inject it's insides into you, therebye vastly increasing any risk. Only long fingernails, tick tweezers , twisters or a carefully wielded knife should be used to remove them if you are not used to doing it.

Old wives methods of covering them with something sticky (like honey) or teasing them with a lit cigarette are to be avoided. they can do more harm than good.

Huw said, 1562955592

Richard Winn said

Huw said

Richard Winn said

Huw said

U S Lyme disease tends to affect the joints, and that’s all most U.K. Doctors know about. Northern European Lyme disease tends to affect the nervous system, and most U.K. doctors know very little about it because most of the relevant publications are in German or Nordic languages.


Do you by any chance have any links to Norwegian papers Huw? My Norwegian is very rusty, but I would have a chance of translating, it wouldn't be the first paper I've translated. I'm considering writing an article. While.I want to avoid doing it from a clinical angle, there could be some useful stats that could add to any information I can put in, including things not to do.

Testing has become more widespread in recent years, which has probably contributed to the lower incidence of the characteristic rash than quoted in earlier papers. We used to send samples away for testing, but I think we do the initial testing in house, only sending away for confirmation. It used to be mainly labs in the publicised higher incidence areas, hence Plymouth an Southampton. The south west in particular an south in general are high risk areas though.

My wife appears to have got over it five years ago, so I'm not up to date.
I had a lot of international pathologist friends helping at the time, so I wasn't reading it in the original versions.

https://xn--flttsenteret-ucb.no/in-english/


https://www.fhi.no/en/el/insects-and-pests/ticks-and-tick-borne-diseases/borreliose/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33136-0#Abs1

https://ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/media/en/healthtopics/vectors/world-health-day-2014/Documents/factsheet-lyme-borreliosis.pdf

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1198743X14628871

The incidence of positive results has gone up since they improved their techniques about five years ago.

Edited by Huw


Thanks Huw. Because it is a serological diagnosis, it is performed in the Virology department, even though it is a bacteria, so I have very little direct involvement. Most of my knowledge is probably 10 years old, so it predates what you have. Testing has improved since then and is more widely available. I wrote a dissertation on antigenic variation in a number of different bacteria, as part of my Master's, including Borrelia hermsii (one of the causes of relapsing fever) and touched on Borrelia burgdorferi in that dissertation. B. burgdorferi is less antigenically complex, with less variation and doesn't switch in the same way as B. hermsii, but it does still have some of the characteristics, effectively hiding from the immune system.


My wife had very chronic Lyme - Borrelia in the CNS - so not easily demonstrated by standard tests.
Relapse every year or so when stressed.

Eventually we took blood from both arms during a flare-up and sent them to IGeneX for Lyme Multiplex PCR.
https://igenex.com/disease/borrelia/#drawer-5

Once we'd shown the presence of Borrelia DNA in her bloodstream about six years post-infection it became a lot easier to get it treated.

...   I'm a (non-NHS) pathologist.


Edited by Huw

Richard Winn said, 1562957376

Huw said



My wife had very chronic Lyme - Borrelia in the CNS - so not easily demonstrated by standard tests.
Relapse every year or so when stressed.

Eventually we took blood from both arms during a flare-up and sent them to IGeneX for Lyme Multiplex PCR.
https://igenex.com/disease/borrelia/#drawer-5

Once we'd shown the presence of Borrelia DNA in her bloodstream about six years post-infection it became a lot easier to get it treated.

...   I'm a (non-NHS) pathologist.


Edited by Huw


Diagnosis is still largely reliant on antibodies, but PCR is now available in the UK. More and more PCR assays are becoming available as closed tests, which will make it easier for even more widespread and sensitive testing methods. As you know, antibody levels decrease over time and if the bacteria are masked from the immune system, the immune response is impaired.

I'm a Biomedical Scientist. Initially I was general bacteriology, with the usual basic grounding in mycology and parasitology, but I started to specialise in mycology with my Master's thesis, then spent almost three years in Norway and Greece researching the immunology of fungal infections, with particular emphasis on cytokines and immune modulators. We were using them to try to augment the immune response in patients with haematological malignancies.

A Shot in the Dark said, 1562958225

I was told by the doctor I might get a false negative, I'm wondering how likely this is? I started to develop the rash like area about a month ago.

Asking here because I can see there some really good knowledge!

Richard Winn said, 1562959715

A Shot in the Dark said

I was told by the doctor I might get a false negative, I'm wondering how likely this is? I started to develop the rash like area about a month ago.

Asking here because I can see there some really good knowledge!


I can't speak specifically, as Lyme's isn't an area I've spent a large amount of time researching and gaining knowledge in. There are two main groups of antibodies found in the blood, one is classed as acute and one as long term. Acute antibodies start to increase within a day or two of infection, while the longer lasting ones take a couple of weeks or so to start building to detectable levels. The acute antibody levels drop relatively quickly, while the others last much longer However, over time, even the longer term antibodies start to diminish. Depending on the infection, this is months or years (some infections don't result in long term antibodies at all). Tests are usually designed to detect one of the antibody classes, but not the other, although some have a dual component and some diseases are investigated with a combination to give and indication of whether it is an acute or past infection. This is true for most infectious diseases, but some muddy the waters a little. The tests designed to detect the longer term antibodies have a risk of false negative results in the early stages of disease, because they haven't yet been produced (or at least not to detectable levels). Based on general principles, one month would give you a fighting chance to avoid ant false negatives, but everyone is different and the immune response can vary quite considerably from person to person. That is why one person can fight one infection, while another may get a much more severe reaction, but with another infection, it might be the other way around. After two weeks or so, up to perhaps several months or a few years, depending on the infection, the tests for longer term antibodies are at their most sensitive. After that, detection rates start to decrease again. This is more evident with diseases that have evolved to hide from the immune system.

This link from Public Health England gives a bit more information:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/lyme-borreliosis-service


A Shot in the Dark said, 1562959919

Richard Winn thank you so much for taking the time to write that, it makes more sense to me now! I'll take a peek at the link to.

Massively appreciated!

Miss Diamond Sparkle 💕☯ aka nudie butt said, 1562960094

omg i had a tick the other day and was told that it is extremely rare in the UK from a nurse, you are the third person i know to have lymes disease!

Richard Winn said, 1562960291

A Shot in the Dark said

Richard Winn thank you so much for taking the time to write that, it makes more sense to me now! I'll take a peek at the link to.

Massively appreciated!


That's ok. Just remember that no test is 100% sensitive or specific. There will always be the potential for false results, even if it is mostly very low.

A Shot in the Dark said, 1562960434

Miss Diamond Sparkle ��☯ the nurse that took my blood said it was reasonably common haha, but that might be because she takes blood all day so inevitably would see it more.

Miss Diamond Sparkle 💕☯ aka nudie butt said, 1562960504

they wouldn't put me on anti biotics, just took the tick out