Return of a deposit

Photowallah

I've paid stage payments to building trades.

I had a service contract with a garage, monthly payments against future services.

I've secured bookings for travel etc with a deposit.

I've known people put down a deposit on a car, and done it myself when it would then be a specific one built to my order.

I know people

Photowallah said

I do not, and will not, under any circumstances, pay deposits to models.

I don't pay deposits to the plumber, the electrician, my hairdresser, the garage, or to any other person I deal with on a similar footing.

And if models are going to insist on taking deposits then I will start billing them for my time and investment when they fail to show up - as has happened countless times before.

Edited by Photowallah

Do you not?  My hairdresser takes full payment on the day of booking. I have only once needed a plumber and it was £80 upfront and several hundred more on completion of the job.

I model for a hobby and have a decently paid day job, so I can afford not to take a deposit, but I can totally understand why someone who is relying on this to make an income might.  There's been so many times when I've spent time and money preparing myself or my home for a shoot only for a last minute cancellation without any attempt to rebook, and the photographers who voluntarily pay anyway are few and far between.  It must be awful if a model was expecting to be able to treat her family or buy something she needed and then ends up out of pocket with no funds to fall back on and often very little explanation. 

Photowallah said

I do not, and will not, under any circumstances, pay deposits to models.

I don't pay deposits to the plumber, the electrician, my hairdresser, the garage, or to any other person I deal with on a similar footing.

And if models are going to insist on taking deposits then I will start billing them for my time and investment when they fail to show up - as has happened countless times before.

Edited by Photowallah

So. 

1. If a studio asks for a deposit, do you pay?  Do you pay for plane, concert or other tickets ahead of time? Do you give a hotel your credit card number in case you don't show ?

if the answer to any of those is yes, why are models as a category less trustworthy.

2 Imagine a fantastic model you really want to work with. Great look, 500 references all positive, zero no shows. But over time about 5% of the photographers she's worked with have failed to turn up. She's booking a place to work from near you. You apply and she asks for a deposit. 
Do you put the principle of not trusting any model ahead of the pictures you chose to make and, book a model with a so-so look, who's been here 6 months and got 3 references, and pay a studio in advance ?

Because when some says they have had "countless" no shows, I think, hang on, I've had over 100 models show up since my only no-show, what am I getting right that he's getting wrong. I don't know but I do seem to be screening out the flakes. 

I suspect most of the models who've taken a deposit from me would accept a "And I'll bill you for my costs if you don't show" because they're confident of showing up.   
 

MidgePhoto said

Photowallah

I've paid stage payments to building trades.

I had a service contract with a garage, monthly payments against future services.

I've secured bookings for travel etc with a deposit.

I've known people put down a deposit on a car, and done it myself when it would then be a specific one built to my order.

I know people

None of which are on a "similar footing".

CalmNudes said

Photowallah said

I do not, and will not, under any circumstances, pay deposits to models.

I don't pay deposits to the plumber, the electrician, my hairdresser, the garage, or to any other person I deal with on a similar footing.

And if models are going to insist on taking deposits then I will start billing them for my time and investment when they fail to show up - as has happened countless times before.

Edited by Photowallah

So. 

1. If a studio asks for a deposit, do you pay?  Do you pay for plane, concert or other tickets ahead of time? Do you give a hotel your credit card number in case you don't show ?

if the answer to any of those is yes, why are models as a category less trustworthy.

2 Imagine a fantastic model you really want to work with. Great look, 500 references all positive, zero no shows. But over time about 5% of the photographers she's worked with have failed to turn up. She's booking a place to work from near you. You apply and she asks for a deposit. 
Do you put the principle of not trusting any model ahead of the pictures you chose to make and, book a model with a so-so look, who's been here 6 months and got 3 references, and pay a studio in advance ?

Because when some says they have had "countless" no shows, I think, hang on, I've had over 100 models show up since my only no-show, what am I getting right that he's getting wrong. I don't know but I do seem to be screening out the flakes. 

I suspect most of the models who've taken a deposit from me would accept a "And I'll bill you for my costs if you don't show" because they're confident of showing up.   
 

1. see above. Plus generally speaking studios, airlines and concert venues don't vanish into the ether.

2. correct, I don't book models unless I find their terms and rates acceptable. There's always another model or another shoot concept.

As regards 'no-shows' I can only say "lucky you". I've had enough of them to know not to hand out money to models in advance.

CalmNudes said

Photowallah said

I don't pay deposits to the plumber, the electrician, my hairdresser, the garage, or to any other person I deal with on a similar footing.

If a studio asks for a deposit, do you pay?  Do you pay for plane, concert or other tickets ahead of time? Do you give a hotel your credit card number in case you don't show?

The key difference is the written contract which is in place, with a real name and address, and the chance that legal action could be taken for recovery if needed.  Not that one plans on taking such action, but it's the possibility that one could.

Sensual Art said

CalmNudes said

Photowallah said

I don't pay deposits to the plumber, the electrician, my hairdresser, the garage, or to any other person I deal with on a similar footing.

If a studio asks for a deposit, do you pay?  Do you pay for plane, concert or other tickets ahead of time? Do you give a hotel your credit card number in case you don't show?

The key difference is the written contract which is in place, with a real name and address, and the chance that legal action could be taken for recovery if needed.  Not that one plans on taking such action, but it's the possibility that one could.

The last model to ask me for deposit sent me an invoice with her legal name, postal address, and bank details.  

Studios have been known to vanish suddenly. The last one I recall being when the owner was arrested. 

My misogyny antennae start to twitch when people say you can't count on models to (a) show up (b) return a deposit if they have to cancel, because I wonder what it is models all have in common which allows people to make such a sweeping generalisation .

Photowallah said

CalmNudes said

 

1. see above. Plus generally speaking studios, airlines and concert venues don't vanish into the ether.

2. correct, I don't book models unless I find their terms and rates acceptable. There's always another model or another shoot concept.

As regards 'no-shows' I can only say "lucky you". I've had enough of them to know not to hand out money to models in advance.

Lucky me indeed. I work with the best models and they always show up. And I pay less because they are recovering costs from the no-shows, instead of charging more to those who do show up.
You pick those who "vanish into the ether" all the time. Should we say "poor you" or "pick better", because if I had such low expectations of models I'd stop doing this,  

Ever tried to get a refund for a cancelled gig or for a Theatre performance where the star you went to see couldn't do the show and the understudy came on instead ?  When a certain studio not far from me was suddenly closed I don't think people got their shoots or their money ? Plane tickets are different because airlines have arrangements to get people home if they go bust and you can go to your credit card company for a refund if you paid by CC. 

Having in the past “trusted” a model and paid the model in full upfront, booked and paid for a location, only for the shoot end in disaster. Long story but we’ve not paid a model upfront or a deposit since. Cash on the day, period.

If in the unlikely event we have to cancel for any reason we would compensate the model in full.

AmarissaCeleste said

Photowallah said

I do not, and will not, under any circumstances, pay deposits to models.

I don't pay deposits to the plumber, the electrician, my hairdresser, the garage, or to any other person I deal with on a similar footing.

And if models are going to insist on taking deposits then I will start billing them for my time and investment when they fail to show up - as has happened countless times before.

Edited by Photowallah

Do you not?  My hairdresser takes full payment on the day of booking. I have only once needed a plumber and it was £80 upfront and several hundred more on completion of the job.

Weird. My barber has only ever asked me for payment at the end of the cut, and after showing a 360 in the mirror and asking if I was completely happy with it. Over the last 3 years I must have spent around £40k with various contractors, including plumbers, brickies, electricians, plasterers and roofers - none asked for a deposit and payment was, without exception, on invoice upon completion of their respective jobs.

Edited by FiL

Weird. My barber has only ever asked me for payment at the end of the cut, and after showing a 360 in the mirror and asking if I was completely happy with it. Over the last 3 years I must have spent around £40k with various contractors, including plumbers, brickies, electricians, plasterers and roofers - none asked for a deposit and payment was, without exception, on invoice upon completion of their respective jobs.

Edited by FiL

Really?!  I find that very odd.  I had a new kitchen fitted a few months ago and I had to pay half upfront, 25% on the first day they turned up and the remaining 25% (plus all the extras for things that arose during the fitting) on the date they finished the job.  I find it odd that a business would put themselves in a position where they are booked for a week, turn down alternative work during that period and then can be dropped by the customer and bear the full cost of that themselves.  

AmarissaCeleste said

Weird. My barber has only ever asked me for payment at the end of the cut, and after showing a 360 in the mirror and asking if I was completely happy with it. Over the last 3 years I must have spent around £40k with various contractors, including plumbers, brickies, electricians, plasterers and roofers - none asked for a deposit and payment was, without exception, on invoice upon completion of their respective jobs.

Edited by FiL

Really?!

Yes, really.

Photowallah said

MidgePhoto said

None of which are on a "similar footing".

Ah well, feet.

You fear being left without a leg to stand on if they fail to carry out the contract.

It is not clear to me what unique difference applying to models anyone could adduce to explain this difference.

Still, having been cut off at the ankles once, I'll not continue in this thread.

I am OK with paying deposits to established models. I find it fair especially if they tour (in continental Europe) and need to arrange flights and accommodation week/months before the shooting date.

I am not OK if the Model is on constant travel without a steady address. That's a sign I take as risky and don't like to commit. That said, I did and would arrange their travel tickets and acccommodation.  

Photowallah said

 

As regards 'no-shows' I can only say "lucky you". I've had enough of them to know not to hand out money to models in advance.

I've had one no-show in twenty years of shooting models, and I knew she was a risk when I booked her.  I'm not sure that luck really comes into it, perhaps it's more due diligence in the selection of models?  I'm happy to pay a deposit to a well-established and respected model if asked (quite often I'm not), less so to jennyfancypants1996* or similar.

(* Apologies for slighting jennyfancypants1996 if she exists!)

I went to the local Kawasaki dealers, and left a small deposit on one of the motorbikes.

Not been allowed back in the shop since.