Return of a deposit

Danny Molyneux said

ADWsPhotos said

It's cool to see that in the last few days a possibly worthy successor to Sweaty may emerge.

*turns up sarcasm filter another notch*

tee hee, possibly, but I'm not wrong, am I?  

Edited by ADWsPhotos

I understand why models ask for a deposit and due to a sequence of of no shows I do not pay one.. I have on occassion forwarded train fare to models that I know and once to an a model unknow to me. That proved to be a mistake.

I have loads of references and models are alway welcome to follow them up.

I am unable to comment on the question of recovering funds as you ask.

Sacha Saxer said

FiL said

So, back to my original question then.

"If the model has already spent your money on tickets and accommodation are you really prepared to write it off if/when she cancels? Or do you expect her to somehow refund it out of her own finances?"

Care to answer?

Edited by FiL

Yes, I expect her to refund me or even better, to reschedule. Happened exactly once that we had to reschedule due to the model being sick at the time. Rescheduled to a few days later, "problem" solved.

It's not that I say every model should ask for a deposit, I simply understand why they do it and have no issue with it.

Cool, thank you.

I think photographers in general are too readily inclined to believe, somewhat naively, that models will always be in a position to repay deposits whereas, in many cases, the reality is likely to be that the cash was spent long ago (very likely on rent and food for her and any kids). I'm not saying that models set out to intentionally defraud photographers, simply that their financial circumstances are likely to preclude refunds even if they wished to make them. Half a dozen, or more, £100 deposits for a tour quickly amount to a sum of money which may prove impossible for them to find.

So, unless photographers are fully prepared to write off a deposit I'd urge caution. I wouldn't pay one myself but that's largely because I prefer not to expose a model to the consequences of potentially not being able to repay one should her venture go tits up.

I also have an issue with models seeking to offload their business risk onto me. I know for a fact that I wouldn't cancel without paying the model's full fee but I'm not willing to underwrite other photographers who do/might.

".. simply that their financial circumstances are likely to preclude refunds even if they wished to make them.". 

In which case that is surely an act of theft.

.....affordability of the "victim" versus the "unfortunate taker of the deposit" does not make it less of a crime in law.

Fraud......Theft......

It is a hard one to discuss, but the law is the law?

Probably wise to arm any money changing hands with the written word, to just formalise how the money actually changes ownership (and when).

Deposits.......not for me in what is now just a hobby that I don't really spend time on.   If I cannot arrange something amicably, I'll just go shoot the wildlife in the garden, or just pour a glass of red and stick a record on.

Once arranged a TFP shoot with a model from PP where I agreed to transfer money via paypal for travel expenses upfront to enable the model to buy a train ticket. I got a message the night before the shoot saying they couldn't make it. No mention of the travel expenses or proof that they even purchased the ticket? Model deactivated their PP account but has recently returned. (Instantly blocked) I won't be falling for that one again! It did make me wonder if and how many other Photographers this model may have done this to? 😥 

H A L said

Once arranged a TFP shoot with a model from PP where I agreed to transfer money via paypal for travel expenses upfront to enable the model to buy a train ticket. I got a message the night before the shoot saying they couldn't make it. No mention of the travel expenses or proof that they even purchased the ticket? Model deactivated their PP account but has recently returned. (Instantly blocked) I won't be falling for that one again! It did make me wonder if and how many other Photographers this model may have done this to? 😥 

I believe you can pay for and have tickets delivered to a model's address, rather than send cash. Someone else may be able to confirm and explain how that's done.

FiL said

H A L said

Once arranged a TFP shoot with a model from PP where I agreed to transfer money via paypal for travel expenses upfront to enable the model to buy a train ticket. I got a message the night before the shoot saying they couldn't make it. No mention of the travel expenses or proof that they even purchased the ticket? Model deactivated their PP account but has recently returned. (Instantly blocked) I won't be falling for that one again! It did make me wonder if and how many other Photographers this model may have done this to? 😥 

I believe you can pay for and have tickets delivered to a model's address, rather than send cash. Someone else may be able to confirm and explain how that's done.

Thanks for the info FiL . Maybe next time? Live and learn eh? (Y)

FiL said

H A L said

Once arranged a TFP shoot with a model from PP where I agreed to transfer money via paypal for travel expenses upfront to enable the model to buy a train ticket. I got a message the night before the shoot saying they couldn't make it. No mention of the travel expenses or proof that they even purchased the ticket? Model deactivated their PP account but has recently returned. (Instantly blocked) I won't be falling for that one again! It did make me wonder if and how many other Photographers this model may have done this to? 😥 

I believe you can pay for and have tickets delivered to a model's address, rather than send cash. Someone else may be able to confirm and explain how that's done.

When I’ve had tickets bought for me, they simply sent me the confirmation code and I collected them myself. No need to mess around with having tickets delivered.

Now what was the OP's original question, again?  :-)

Think I've paid a deposit 3 times.

1st: Paid. Model cancelled and "wasn't modelling any more"

2nd: Paid. No issue. Local model. Very professional.

3rd: Paid. Model was on tour. But didn't get enough photographers to make it worth while. Money given straight back.

It's a mixed bag. I haven't paid a deposit/upfront for years now. And try not to. Had models claim payment up front is an "industry standard" while being completely unprofessional in other ways. After that shoot. I stopped.

Feel similar about cancellation fees

*Shrugs*

ADWsPhotos said

It's cool to see that in the last few days a possibly worthy successor to Sweaty may emerge.

I think you may be correct!  :-)

ADWsPhotos said

It's cool to see that in the last few days a possibly worthy successor to Sweaty may emerge.

I think he's back?

I always use payment companies (PayPal, CashApp, Venmo, etc.). If there is a problem, they issue a refund immediately and then go after the no-show.

I do not, and will not, under any circumstances, pay deposits to models.

I don't pay deposits to the plumber, the electrician, my hairdresser, the garage, or to any other person I deal with on a similar footing.

And if models are going to insist on taking deposits then I will start billing them for my time and investment when they fail to show up - as has happened countless times before.

Edited by Photowallah