Return of a deposit

Sacha Saxer said

K-arl said

Asking for a deposit surely indicates a lack of trust? If I agree to shoot with a model I give her all the information she asked for to make a check on me. If that is not enough, I would  question my trust in her.

I fully understand travelling models requiring deposits as they have to pay for travel in advance and might have to pay deposits for accommodation, too. If they got burned by photographers not paying up and/or cancelling last minute it makes sense for them to ask for a deposit. Same for shoot events where a location has to be rented and a late cancellation would result in a substantial loss. Can't pay bills with trust in the photographers.

Using your money rather than her own to front expenses just means that the model is likely to be much less rational about her ventures. If the model has already spent your money on tickets and accommodation are you really prepared to write it off if/when she cancels? Or do you expect her to somehow refund it out of her own finances?

I *might* consider paying a deposit to the value of an agreed train fare.
I am unlikely to pay a deposit to secure a booking.
If I ever did pay a deposit, then I would only do so if I had the respondents full details, including legal name and address - this doesn't matter to me if it was a tenner or (highly unlikely) a ton ... I can't really afford to loose either.
I am unlikely to pay a deposit for an event, or a touring model.

FiL said

Sacha Saxer said

K-arl said

Asking for a deposit surely indicates a lack of trust? If I agree to shoot with a model I give her all the information she asked for to make a check on me. If that is not enough, I would  question my trust in her.

I fully understand travelling models requiring deposits as they have to pay for travel in advance and might have to pay deposits for accommodation, too. If they got burned by photographers not paying up and/or cancelling last minute it makes sense for them to ask for a deposit. Same for shoot events where a location has to be rented and a late cancellation would result in a substantial loss. Can't pay bills with trust in the photographers.

Using your money rather than her own to front expenses just means that the model is likely to be much less rational about her ventures. If the model has already spent your money on tickets and accommodation are you really prepared to write it off if/when she cancels? Or do you expect her to somehow refund it out of her own finances?

I don't know who you work with, but the models I work with are professionals who rely on this income so they do everything they can to make each and every shoot they book happen. The deposit is so that the photographer doesn't cancel, leaving them with open slots on short notice that they often simply cannot fill on such short notice.

It appears that there's quite a different mentality in the UK compared to mainland Europe. 

Sacha Saxer said

FiL said

Sacha Saxer said

K-arl said

Asking for a deposit surely indicates a lack of trust? If I agree to shoot with a model I give her all the information she asked for to make a check on me. If that is not enough, I would  question my trust in her.

I fully understand travelling models requiring deposits as they have to pay for travel in advance and might have to pay deposits for accommodation, too. If they got burned by photographers not paying up and/or cancelling last minute it makes sense for them to ask for a deposit. Same for shoot events where a location has to be rented and a late cancellation would result in a substantial loss. Can't pay bills with trust in the photographers.

Using your money rather than her own to front expenses just means that the model is likely to be much less rational about her ventures. If the model has already spent your money on tickets and accommodation are you really prepared to write it off if/when she cancels? Or do you expect her to somehow refund it out of her own finances?

I don't know who you work with, but the models I work with are professionals who rely on this income so they do everything they can to make each and every shoot they book happen. The deposit is so that the photographer doesn't cancel, leaving them with open slots on short notice that they often simply cannot fill on such short notice.

It appears that there's quite a different mentality in the UK compared to mainland Europe. 

So, having previously said that models need to charge a deposit in order to front their pre-event costs, you're now moving away from that stance?

FiL said

Sacha Saxer said

FiL said

Sacha Saxer said

K-arl said

Asking for a deposit surely indicates a lack of trust? If I agree to shoot with a model I give her all the information she asked for to make a check on me. If that is not enough, I would  question my trust in her.

I fully understand travelling models requiring deposits as they have to pay for travel in advance and might have to pay deposits for accommodation, too. If they got burned by photographers not paying up and/or cancelling last minute it makes sense for them to ask for a deposit. Same for shoot events where a location has to be rented and a late cancellation would result in a substantial loss. Can't pay bills with trust in the photographers.

Using your money rather than her own to front expenses just means that the model is likely to be much less rational about her ventures. If the model has already spent your money on tickets and accommodation are you really prepared to write it off if/when she cancels? Or do you expect her to somehow refund it out of her own finances?

I don't know who you work with, but the models I work with are professionals who rely on this income so they do everything they can to make each and every shoot they book happen. The deposit is so that the photographer doesn't cancel, leaving them with open slots on short notice that they often simply cannot fill on such short notice.

It appears that there's quite a different mentality in the UK compared to mainland Europe. 

So, having previously said that models need to charge a deposit in order to front their pre-event costs, you're now moving away from that stance?

No, not at all. There are several reasons why a deposit makes sense and they play into each other. Don't forget, outside the UK models actually get paid rates that allow a living. Having a deposit will ensure the photographer is thinking twice about cancelling (so it secures the remainder of the fee) and it allows for plane/train tickets and deposits for accommodation.

Your insinuation that a deposit would make a model less rational about their ventures is actually pretty insulting. Like they'd risk their reputation for a few hundred Euros when there are thousands of Euros at stake. (Over the whole tour, not speaking of a single photographer) And of course they'll give you a bill for the deposit and all that. It's their business, not their hobby.

Sacha Saxer said

FiL said

Sacha Saxer said

FiL said

Sacha Saxer said

K-arl said

Asking for a deposit surely indicates a lack of trust? If I agree to shoot with a model I give her all the information she asked for to make a check on me. If that is not enough, I would  question my trust in her.

I fully understand travelling models requiring deposits as they have to pay for travel in advance and might have to pay deposits for accommodation, too. If they got burned by photographers not paying up and/or cancelling last minute it makes sense for them to ask for a deposit. Same for shoot events where a location has to be rented and a late cancellation would result in a substantial loss. Can't pay bills with trust in the photographers.

Using your money rather than her own to front expenses just means that the model is likely to be much less rational about her ventures. If the model has already spent your money on tickets and accommodation are you really prepared to write it off if/when she cancels? Or do you expect her to somehow refund it out of her own finances?

I don't know who you work with, but the models I work with are professionals who rely on this income so they do everything they can to make each and every shoot they book happen. The deposit is so that the photographer doesn't cancel, leaving them with open slots on short notice that they often simply cannot fill on such short notice.

It appears that there's quite a different mentality in the UK compared to mainland Europe. 

So, having previously said that models need to charge a deposit in order to front their pre-event costs, you're now moving away from that stance?

No, not at all. There are several reasons why a deposit makes sense and they play into each other. Don't forget, outside the UK models actually get paid rates that allow a living. Having a deposit will ensure the photographer is thinking twice about cancelling (so it secures the remainder of the fee) and it allows for plane/train tickets and deposits for accommodation.

Your insinuation that a deposit would make a model less rational about their ventures is actually pretty insulting. Like they'd risk their reputation for a few hundred Euros when there are thousands of Euros at stake. (Over the whole tour, not speaking of a single photographer) And of course they'll give you a bill for the deposit and all that. It's their business, not their hobby.

So, back to my original question then.

"If the model has already spent your money on tickets and accommodation are you really prepared to write it off if/when she cancels? Or do you expect her to somehow refund it out of her own finances?"

Care to answer?

Edited by FiL

If you want to make rules similar to other business you should follow normal business practice so the customer is confident.

So deposits I don't do.

Edited by Wondrous

Sacha Saxer said

FiL said

Sacha Saxer said

K-arl said

Asking for a deposit surely indicates a lack of trust? If I agree to shoot with a model I give her all the information she asked for to make a check on me. If that is not enough, I would  question my trust in her.

I fully understand travelling models requiring deposits as they have to pay for travel in advance and might have to pay deposits for accommodation, too. If they got burned by photographers not paying up and/or cancelling last minute it makes sense for them to ask for a deposit. Same for shoot events where a location has to be rented and a late cancellation would result in a substantial loss. Can't pay bills with trust in the photographers.

Using your money rather than her own to front expenses just means that the model is likely to be much less rational about her ventures. If the model has already spent your money on tickets and accommodation are you really prepared to write it off if/when she cancels? Or do you expect her to somehow refund it out of her own finances?

I don't know who you work with, but the models I work with are professionals who rely on this income so they do everything they can to make each and every shoot they book happen. The deposit is so that the photographer doesn't cancel, leaving them with open slots on short notice that they often simply cannot fill on such short notice.

It appears that there's quite a different mentality in the UK compared to mainland Europe. 

Surely if the models are a professional, they invest in their profession and factor into their costs all sorts of possible eventualities? Your position is rather patronising to the model. No?

K-arl said

Asking for a deposit surely indicates a lack of trust? If I agree to shoot with a model I give her all the information she asked for to make a check on me. If that is not enough, I would  question my trust in her.

Yes and no. One model (well known and highly thought of) who I've shot with many times started charging deposits after a rash of no shows. She apologized for asking me, but she couldn't cope with a system where some photographers only paid part on the day and some paid in full, or photographers talking to each other and finding one was more trusted than another it had to be everyone or no-one and no-one wasn't working. It's a sad world but being pushed to be distrustful of everyone in a fair and equal way is something I can understand.  

Like others have said - only pay a deposit to models you trust. Getting a £50 deposit back probably takes £100 worth of grief. 

I have only ever asked for a deposit once when the photographer had over 4 recent negative references, as in late cancellations and no shows. I said I'd return it if I had to cancel. Unfortunately even after agreeing, the deposit didn't materialise, so to save any hassle I cancelled the shoot.

FiL said

So, back to my original question then.

"If the model has already spent your money on tickets and accommodation are you really prepared to write it off if/when she cancels? Or do you expect her to somehow refund it out of her own finances?"

Care to answer?

Edited by FiL

Yes, I expect her to refund me or even better, to reschedule. Happened exactly once that we had to reschedule due to the model being sick at the time. Rescheduled to a few days later, "problem" solved.

It's not that I say every model should ask for a deposit, I simply understand why they do it and have no issue with it.

K-arl said

Surely if the models are a professional, they invest in their profession and factor into their costs all sorts of possible eventualities? Your position is rather patronising to the model. No?

Understanding why they ask for deposits is patronising? Seriously?

Some years ago I paid a deposit to a model on PP who had responded to a casting of mine to be a model at a lighting workshop. Deposit she asked for was sufficient to cover the travel cost to the shoot. Two days before the workshop around midnight she sends a PP message saying she was stopping modelling and wouldn’t be at the shoot. Then promptly permanently deactivated her account. Admin was not able to get involved as it was financial and model had closed account.

I found her email on her blog and emailed several times asking for the return of the deposit. Never got a reply. As a result I don’t do deposits anymore.

It's cool to see that in the last few days a possibly worthy successor to Sweaty may emerge.

ADWsPhotos said

It's cool to see that in the last few days a possibly worthy successor to Sweaty may emerge.

*turns up sarcasm filter another notch*

Sacha Saxer said

K-arl said

Surely if the models are a professional, they invest in their profession and factor into their costs all sorts of possible eventualities? Your position is rather patronising to the model. No?

Understanding why they ask for deposits is patronising? Seriously?

You were talking about professional models, when you are professional you factor in all adverse eventualities, it's why their rates are usually much higher. No? That's how it worked when I worked for myself. I can understand a hobby model with a low income modelling on the side for extra income asking for pre-shoot help but it is doubtful she would be travelling far. As someone potentially buying a service and I have a choice between an upfront payment and someone equally talented not requiring one, it would be sensible for me to go with the latter, as she would seem more trusting to me, which would give me confidence.

I've lost interest. I never joined for conflict. I'll leave the threads alone. Models will decide what is best for themselves and act accordingly.

Edited by K-arl