Only Fans & Patreon

CalmNudes thank you for the very clear and detailed response!

Gothic Image said

Orson Carter said

How best to avoid it?...

Choose your models carefully. 

There's a lot to be said for that ...

I've got another tip... 

Don't shoot stuff that people would want to pay to see. 

That one works for me. I just shoot very average, unadventurous stuff that nobody in their right mind would pay to see. 

Keira Lavelle said

If you’re not comfortable with the request, just decline. Respectfully of course. 🙂 It may seem presumptuous and entitled after a paid shoot, but more often that not - it’s more ignorance/naivety than malice in these circumstances. Try not to let it get to you too much.

Future prevention - some simple (but clear) T’s & C’s before every shoot you do. Just something you could easily copy and paste. I find good communications usually eradicate most misunderstandings. 🙂 You can further reduce the risk of it happening again by booking respective models who are more likely to be professionally clued up about such etiquette. Most reputable models who value their professional relationship with photographers wouldn’t dream of asking and (despite the fact that such platforms generally prefer self-shot content) would only upload any photographer’s work if the copyright holder reached out and made that allowance off their own back. Your average professional model wouldn’t even ask.

...[snipped]...

^ Wot she said. 

I've done more than 900 shoots. There have been only about half a dozen instances when (IMO) the model hasn't acted totally ethically, but that still leaves 900+ shoots where everything has been hunky dory.    

As for written contracts, one model asked me to sign one when we did our first shoot. It was a fairly simple contract regarding my use of the pictures and not using any liquifying during the editing process. No problem. But all the other 900+ shoots have been without any written contract. As Ms Lavelle says, it's all about mutual trust. 

Caitlyn. Not on any pay site, just PP. I had a topless shot of a model who later became a mum and reached out to ask if I would remove it from my profile for that reason.

Result? I just removed it as per her request. It was the decent thing to do.

Hopefully you might be able to reach such a conclusion in your instance? Good luck.

Jacktheclicker said

What do you think about Models who charge for a shoot and then ask for the photos for free and then use those photos to sell on Only Fans and Patreon? How does a photographer deal with such situation and how best to avoid it?

I dont use onlyfans.  In the early days I tried to create an account so I could post my uncensored images and I got some blurb about not being allowed to post a models photos without a release or consent, and I thought! thats no good!  what if my pics are old or I've lost contact with a model or they dont model any more or their levels changed.  The copyright is Mine! I should be able to post them.
I was surpised then the same restrictions did not appear for the models where they seemed to be able to post images of themselves without necessarily asking for consent of the copyright holder.

For me personally I NEVER want photography to be about trying to profit or make money from it.  I've got a day job! Photography is just for fun/pleasure for me.  
TFP.  Dont really like the idea of this, I dont want the pressure of needing to deliver images or having shared owernship etc.
I prefer to pay models for their Time, and I'm happy to share any images I upload with models.

In all the shoots I've done so far, I've never worked with a model who has a list of demands or terms and conditions or thats told me before a shootwhat I can and cant do with my own images,
most are pretty chilled I'd actually find it pretty offputting if I'm to part with my money to hire/pay somebody that had a list of demands or a big T&C list.   
The odd ocasion as I browse through Purpleport looking at model profiles you see this and the first impression you get is the model could be difficult to work with and a worry would be how you'd get on with that person should you work with them and meet in person. (but the door swings both ways and I'm sure my profile notes can be offputting for some people)

Only yesterday I had a discussion with a model who mentioned they used some of my images on their onlyfans!    
My attitute was if they could earn an extra few quid from them, that was great!   If they thought my images were good enough to use thats an ego stroke for me!
I'm only using the images to print&post online and for the enjoyment for creating something artistic, if the model can profit from it a small bit! it does not alter my life in any negative way!
Its tough enough trying be a working model and not have another full time job,  Model I worked with yesterday charges 350-400 Euros for a full day up to Nude levels, hopped on a plane from a differnet country, travelled down the countryside in a car, did a full days shoot and was flying back out of country again the next day for 350ish bucks! 

I'd probably have a different attiture if it was some a Company or organisation stealing images and using them for profit! but not the model herself in the photos.

~B

I had a similar experience a while back, I had booked a slot on a studio day. The model was being paid, but during the shoot she said that she wanted to copy the camera card. This wasn't agreed ahead of time so I declined. Shoot ends, I go home, leave a positive reference regarding the shoot. Then I get a PM basically threatening me with a negative reference because I wouldn't give the memory card and therefore the shoot was a waste of the model's time. I pointed out that it was a paid shoot, but the model insisted that 'other models need to be warned about people like you' and kept pushing for all of the images.

In the end I offered jpeg copies of all shots in return for a full refund, which I got. The model has an OF and the only reason I can think of for being so demanding is that they feel that they could make more money selling the images than they got from the shoot being a paid one on a studio day.

Needless to say, I won't be working with that model again, and I still won't give a copy of the camera card to anyone unless it's agreed in advance. I already shared edited images with every model that I shoot, whether paid or not, which I feel is more than fair. If a model is upfront about wanting shots for OF then that's fine, it becomes a part of the negotiated details, I have no problem with that. But it does need to be discussed in advance, and not during or at the end of the shoot.

Edited by Dag Nammett

Rosie Loki I don't think your questions show much experience. Also the question from OP is not about photographers asking questions pre shoot , it's about photographers being asked post shoot or during shoot.

Maybe I’ve missed the point, but all this talk of contract and copyright law seems over the top to me. I would have thought that most shoots cost the photographer less than £500, much less probably, so it just doesn’t seem worth it to start getting into arguments over what happens to the images.

The OP asked what we think of models who ask for the images and subsequently sell them. I think “great - they like my photos and have good business acumen”. The OP also asked how we deal with such a situation, but there isn’t a situation to deal with - you either say “yes, I’d be delighted to give you the photos” or “no, I’m mean-spirited and don’t want to you have any extra income”.

And I don’t understand why it makes any difference if the question is asked before, during or after the shoot. Of course, it’s best to clarify the terms of reference in advance, but whenever the model asks the question you can just say “yes” or “no”.

Chris Green said

And I don’t understand why it makes any difference if the question is asked before, during or after the shoot. Of course, it’s best to clarify the terms of reference in advance, but whenever the model asks the question you can just say “yes” or “no”.

Using photos adds value.

Should form part of the negotiation before hand.
You don't reopen a deal afterwards. Same as changing the price for the shoot afterwards,,. not cool.

Unless you consider permission to use photos on OF, etc. of relatively little value, like a tip for a waitress?

Edited by Huw

How do you know if any images are used in this way anyway?

Not saying people are underhand, but they could end up on OF etc regardless...

Dag Nammett said

..

In the end I offered jpeg copies of all shots in return for a full refund, which I got. The model has an OF and the only reason I can think of for being so demanding is that they feel that they could make more money selling the images than they got from the shoot being a paid one on a studio day.

..

A couple of models I shoot with regularly and who have a significant fanbase on OF refuse paid modelling shoots, preferring the exchange of content for TF. They'll even provide a nice location for shoots at their expense. They state that paid modelling gigs are a poor use of their time compared to shooting content.

They both shoot highly stylised content though and are very good at it.

Edited by FiL

Chris Green said

Maybe I’ve missed the point, but all this talk of contract and copyright law seems over the top to me. I would have thought that most shoots cost the photographer less than £500, much less probably, so it just doesn’t seem worth it to start getting into arguments over what happens to the images.

The OP asked what we think of models who ask for the images and subsequently sell them. I think “great - they like my photos and have good business acumen”. The OP also asked how we deal with such a situation, but there isn’t a situation to deal with - you either say “yes, I’d be delighted to give you the photos” or “no, I’m mean-spirited and don’t want to you have any extra income”.

I can't speak for anyone else but one of the reasons I pay models is to have the freedom to experiment, see what works and if I don't produce anything, just ditch the images and move on. I've had several occasions in my life where I've been fairly depressed and struggling to find motivation and being free of the need to produce anything useable out of a shoot is a big help. I can then simply copy the shots off the card, and leave them for months if I feel like it, and certainly never worry about the additional effort of working up a useful set.

I have cancelled shoots before when, after agreeing a price with a model, they then mentioned they'd "adjusted their rates" for me and would want some images.

So, yeah, if a total stranger I was paying to shoot suddenly wanted images as well as money, to me, that's extra effort, extra time and I don't want it.

Now, there are a couple of models I've worked with who, if they said "I want to shoot something for OF" I'd be right around,  and we'd likely have a hilariously tongue in cheek afternoon of shooting content I don't normally do. But I wouldn't expect to have to pay for shooting someone else's content.

Generally, I wouldn't be a fan, particularly if the idea were floated during the shoot as opposed to before it.

BigBaldTone said

How do you know if any images are used in this way anyway?

Not saying people are underhand, but they could end up on OF etc regardless...

Some of the images pop up on their social media (Insta, FB etc) with mention in the comments of more to be found on their OF, or whatever platform they use. That's generally how I find out about it anyway.

Edited by FiL

Incandescent Images said

... . I had a topless shot of a model who later became a mum and reached out to ask if I would remove it from my profile for that reason.

Result? I just removed it as per her request. It was the decent thing to do.

...

A great many of us are guided by what seems the decent thing to do. A model asks nicely and/or with what seems like good reason if we'd take a picture down, it's done its job for us on our port and there isn't a strong reason to keep it on PP for ever; so, knowing we have the right to say "no", we say yes, and everyone is happy. 

Not all requests come in a form people will agree to, and some people respond to the most reasonable request by going on about their rights, the investment they made, and so on, and everyone ends up unhappy with everyone.